Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

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  Vanderhoven7

  Weasel words.
• 
  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Is the Faithful Slave organization the only channel of salvation?

  Mark writes:

  That's certainly the claim made by numerous Watchtower articles.

  However in 2015, Geoffrey Jackson said under oath, “That, I think, would seem to be quite presumptuous, to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using.”

  But there doesn't appear to be any official clarification who, or what, “other spokespersons” Jehovah might be using.

  Judge for yourself if he was telling the truth.

  “All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the “greatly diversified wisdom of God” can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave,” (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8).

  “They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1 I

  “Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19

  "Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?"

  "Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12

  "... to leave Jehovah's organization ... we would lose not only the privilege of doing God's will but also the hope of life in God's new world." Watchtower 2016 Jun study ed p.26

  "But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy." Watchtower 1993 Sep 15 p.22

  "At this stage of the affairs of man, it is absolutely impossible for anyone, professed Christian or otherwise, to stand independently of the one organization that is bearing witness worldwide to Jehovah, his goodness and supremacy in accord with the 145th Psalm and, in fact, in accord with all the Scriptures." Yearbook 1982 p.259
• 
  21

  Examples of Watchtower flawed interpretation of Bible passages?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  asking jehovah’s witnesses to interpret specific passages is a great way to demonstrate their interpretive abuse.

  got any clear examples?.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Their entire 1914 chronology is established by a series of eisegetical assumptions.

  Picked this litany of assumptions up somewhere:

  Assumption 1: Nebuchadnezzar’s tree-stump dream in Daniel chapter 4 has a fulfillment beyond his day.

  The book of Daniel makes no mention whatsoever of any fulfillment beyond his day. There is no indication that what happened to Nebuchadnezzar is some type of prophetic drama or minor fulfillment to a major future antitype.

  Assumption 2: The seven times of the dream are meant to represent 360 day years each.

  When this formula applies elsewhere in the Bible, the year-for-a-day ratio is explicitly stated or clearly implied. Here we are assuming that it applies.

  Assumption 3: This prophecy applies to the enthronement of Jesus Christ.

  The point of this dream and its subsequent fulfillment was to provide an object lesson to the King, and mankind in general, that rulership and the appointment of a ruler is the sole prerogative of Jehovah God. There is nothing to indicate that the enthronement of the Messiah is indicated here. Even if it is, there is nothing to indicate that this is a calculation given to show us when that enthronement takes place.

  Assumption 4: This prophecy was given to establish the chronological extent of the appointed times of the nations.

  There is only one reference to the appointed times of the nations in the Bible. At Luke 21:24 Jesus made no connection whatsoever between this phrase and anything contained in the book of Daniel.

  Assumption 5: The appointed times of the nations began when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were taken into exile in Babylon.

  There is nothing in the Bible to indicate when the appointed times of the nations began, so this is pure speculation.

  Assumption 6: The 70 years refers to 70 years in which Jerusalem would be destroyed.

  Based on the wording of the Bible, the 70 years could refer to years in which the Jews were under the rule of Babylon. This would include the servitude when the nobles, including Daniel himself, were taken to Babylon, but the rest were allowed to stay and pay tribute to the King of Babylon. (Jer. 25:11–12)

  Assumption 7: 607 B.C.E. is the year Jerusalem was destroyed and Judah’s king slain and the appointed times of the nations began.

  Scholars agree on two years: 587 B.C.E. as the year of Jerusalem’s destruction, and 539 B.C.E. as the year in which Babylon fell. There is no more reason to accept 539 B.C.E. as valid then there is to accept 607 B.C.E. for Jerusalem’s destruction.

  Assumption 8: 1914 marks the end of the trampling of Jerusalem and therefore the end of the appointed times of the nations.

  There is no evidence that the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations ended in 1914.

  Assumption 9: Satan and his demons were cast down in 1914.

  Witnesses contend that Satan caused the First World War out of anger for being cast down. However, he was cast down in October of 1914 according to WTS interpretation, and yet the war began in August of that year and preparations for the war had been going on for a considerable time before that, as early as 1911. That would mean he had to get angry before he was cast down and the woe to the earth began before he was cast down.

  Assumption 10: The presence of Jesus Christ is invisible and is separate from his coming at Armageddon.

  There is strong evidence in the Bible that the presence of Christ and his arrival at Armageddon are one and the same. There is no hard evidence to indicate that Jesus would rule from heaven invisibly for over 100 plus years before manifesting himself visibly prior to the destruction of this old system of things.

  Assumption 11: The injunction against Jesus’ followers getting knowledge of his installation as king as stated at Acts 1:6, 7 was lifted for Christians in our day.

  This statement of Jesus would mean that the apostles of his day had no right to know when he would be enthroned as king of Israel–spiritual or otherwise. The meaning of Daniel’s prophecy of the 7 times was supposedly hidden from them. Yet, the significance of the 2,520 years was revealed to William Miller, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists in the early part of the 19th Century? That would mean the injunction was lifted for Christians in our day. Where in the Bible does it indicate that Jehovah has changed on this position and granted us foreknowledge of such times and seasons?

  In Summation

  To base the interpretation of a prophetic fulfillment on even one assumption opens the door for disappointment. If that one assumption is wrong, then the interpretation must fall by the wayside. Here we have 11 assumptions! What are the odds that all 11 are true?
• 
  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Mark writes

  The only test is approval from the Governing Body, who claim to be the only men on the planet who are qualified to understand the Bible.

  Rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses just parrot everything they say without question. If the Governing Body decides it's from God, it must be, because they said so.

  Any disagreement with these men is equated to direct rebellion against God.

  

  
• 
  10

  The Apostles Creed vs. Watchtower

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the apostles creed could be recited in less than a minute in latin.

  it was like an ancient youtube video clip: christianity in less than a minute.

  it is very ancient, reaching back to the 200's.

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  Vanderhoven7

  M.T. writes

  The apostle Paul states, “the wages sin pays is death.” Romans 6:23

  This is the inherited sin we’ve received from Adam - the full wage of that inherited sin has been paid upon death.

  Nothing more is owed, nor can anything more be extorted in a supposed “spirit” world.

  Ecclesiastes 9:5 states:

  “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.”

  Jesus’ sacrifice ransomed mankind from Adamic sin and opened the opportunity to become reconciled to God.

  But the apostle Paul brings out another fact:

  “For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Romans 6:7

  Those, both “righteous and unrighteous”, resurrected during the millennial rule of God’s Kingdom will be judged on the basis of what they do after their resurrection, not what they did before in ignorance. That means learning about and putting faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and/or maintaining their previous integrity to Jehovah.

  At the end of the thousand years, all will be subjected to that final test which will determine their eligibility for eternal life on a paradise earth - as was originally intended, and is described at Revelation chapters 21 & 22.

  The resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous on earth is not the same as those anointed 144,000 resurrected as spirit beings to heaven.

  For further discussion, any of the above terms can be entered in Search at JW .org.
• 
  10

  The Apostles Creed vs. Watchtower

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the apostles creed could be recited in less than a minute in latin.

  it was like an ancient youtube video clip: christianity in less than a minute.

  it is very ancient, reaching back to the 200's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @ Blotty

  From their website: You have paid for your sins by your death.

  • w63 8/1 pp. 453-456
  • Do You Pay for Your Sins After Death?

  The testimony of the Bible is unequivocal, reasonable and just. The idea that you pay for your sins after death, and that by suffering, is pagan, not a Scriptural teaching. Man pays for his sins with death. Yes, “sin offers death, for wages.”—Rom. 6:23, Knox.

  
  

  Romans 6:23—“The Wages of Sin Is Death, but the Gift of God Is Eternal Life”

  “The wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.”—Romans 6:23, New World Translation.

  “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”—Romans 6:23, New International Version.

  Meaning of Romans 6:23

  With these words, the apostle Paul explains that humans die because they are sinful. However, God offers his faithful worshippers a wonderful prospect—the gift of everlasting life.

  “The wages sin pays is death.” All people are born imperfect and thus have a tendency to sin. a (Psalm 51:5; Ecclesiastes 7:20) Because they are born in a sinful state, humans inevitably grow old and die.—Romans 5:12.

  To illustrate this point, Paul compares sin to a master who pays wages. Just as a worker expects a wage for his work, so humans can expect to die because of their imperfect condition.

  However, Paul also explains that a person “who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) When a person dies, he is set free, or released, from any sins he has committed.
  
  
• 
  10

  The Apostles Creed vs. Watchtower

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the apostles creed could be recited in less than a minute in latin.

  it was like an ancient youtube video clip: christianity in less than a minute.

  it is very ancient, reaching back to the 200's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Apparently JWs don't need Jesus to pay for their sins since their death does that for them. Romans 6:7
• 
  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  <<Can this Ian person PROVE that this organization was chosen by Jesus in 1919?>>

  No, but that is what the GB is claiming.
• 
  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  1. The GB is God’s sole channel of communication to mankind and has been since April 1919.

  2. Jehovah completely trusts the GB/F&DS and so should all mankind.

  3. If you don’t trust the Faithful Slave Jesus is helpless to save you and you will be destroyed at Armageddon.

  4. Angels are guiding the GB.

  5. The doors of God’s arc-like organization are closing fast.
• 
  25

  What are some of the more exceptional self-authenticating claims made by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's start the ball rolling with two connected claims.. the religion of jehovah’s witnesses is the one true religion.

  all other religions are satanic, including all the churches of christendom..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Ian Ribinson writes:

  1. They Are God’s Sole Channel of Communication on Earth.
  2. Their New World Translation (NWT) Is the Most Accurate Bible – they also discourage external linguistic or historical critiques, relying on their own scholars (whose credentials are often questioned).
  3. They Were Chosen by Jesus in 1919
  4. Their Predictions About the End Times Are Still True – Even though past prophecies (1914, 1925, 1975, "this generation" teaching) have failed, they maintain that their overall prophetic framework is correct.
  5. Only They Truly Understand the Bible – They claim that without their literature, one cannot correctly understand the Bible.
  6. Everyone Outside the Organization Is Misled by Satan