Posts by Vanderhoven7

1. someone connects unrelated bible verses and comes up with a date for the end.. 2. this date is "confirmed" by outside information, such as pyramid measurements.. 3. they share this "hidden knowledge" with others.. 4. they develop a following of people who are excited to be the only ones on earth who understand "the deep things of god.".

5. they promote the date.. 6. people laugh them to scorn.. 7. the faithful cry "persecution" and wait expectantly.. 8. as the date approaches, they get more and more excited.. 9. when the date is imminent, leaders get worried and start to hedge their bets through cautionary language.. 10. when the date comes and goes, they come up with some explanation (adam-eve creation gap, no year 0, etc.

Vanderhoven7

Had to rush the last post.

Because Armageddon was so close, it was not time for the rank and file to marry and have children, nor could they get a smallpox vaccination to save their lives Then from 1967 to 1980, they could not get a cornea transplant to save their sight.

But then some asked why the Jehovah who had led them all the way led them to make these mistakes that no other church in Babylon the Great had made.

Then it was discovered in 1968 having accumulated all the proof needed, that there was no time to go to university or even plan for a career. In fact it would be dangerous. It was time to sell your house and concentrate on the preaching work. But when 1976 came around the rank and file found out that they were guilty of being overzealous again. Shame on them. They of course would have to pay for their mistakes by humbly delivering newspapers and washing windows to make ends meet. If only they had listened to Jehovah's organization in the first place they wouldn't have to work two jobs to support the families they were told not to have.

Oops I see I'm in rant mode.

8

Development of a False Prophecy

by Ding in

based on wt history of repeated false prophecies, here is the way these things seem to develop:.

1. someone connects unrelated bible verses and comes up with a date for the end.. 2. this date is "confirmed" by outside information, such as pyramid measurements.. 3. they share this "hidden knowledge" with others.. 4. they develop a following of people who are excited to be the only ones on earth who understand "the deep things of god.".

5. they promote the date.. 6. people laugh them to scorn.. 7. the faithful cry "persecution" and wait expectantly.. 8. as the date approaches, they get more and more excited.. 9. when the date is imminent, leaders get worried and start to hedge their bets through cautionary language.. 10. when the date comes and goes, they come up with some explanation (adam-eve creation gap, no year 0, etc.

Vanderhoven7

Then they blame the rank and file for overzealous anticipation emphasizing the cautionary elements of their prognostications

As the years go by they look at the blunders of the past positively with even a touch of humor claiming that everyone makes mistakes or the light gets brighter.

Jesus came back in 1874 with 80 proofs to back it up, then aftet Armageddon did not occur in 1914, nor in 1918, nor in 1925, Jesus actually returned they discovered it was 1914.

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

Nitty Gritty

Care to pm me?

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

Concerning this generation one must ask how the Greek word "genea" is used in all four gospels. We'll just use Matthew's gospel as an example to answer the question:

Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?

The Greek word “genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, “this generation” (houtos genea), in context, clearly covers the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's contemporaries”

Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)


Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.: (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ).

Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation ." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows " the persons then living contemporary with Christ are being referred to:

29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 24:34: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

In every gospel the combination of the definite article "houtos" with the Greek word genea invariably refers to the evil generation Christ was dealing with at the time. The 1914 generation has nothing to do the gospels and everything to do with the speculations of men in New York who shamelessly add to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

Hi iXav

If the GB receives new light, does that mean that the old light came from Satan or did the holy spirit gave the GB the wrong information.

If God doesn't speak/intervene directly in human affairs today, how do you know that the GB are chosen by God?

How can someone chosen by God and who has holy spirit still make doctrinal and organizational mistakes?

Excellent questions! Thanks

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

@ Nitty-Gritty

Thank you for providing answers to almost all of the questions listed in the OP.

"Do you ever have doubts about your religion?" No

Strange that you say this when you later express considerable doubt about some of the more fundamental teachings of your organization. e.g. 1914, 144,000, blood policies, Faithful slave.

I do appreciate the fact that even if you lost faith in the FDS you would still believe the Bible.

Actually, I'd like to go over a few of your answers with you...one by one if you are game. My position is that every doctrine that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is extra-biblical. So what I am saying is that I believe that the religion of Jehovah's was never Bible-based.

Vander

P.S. By the way, I believe the Bible is the word of God; I have never believed in immortality of the soul and I came to faith in the fellowship of non-trinitarian brethren associated with the International Bible Student's Association.

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

@Simon

Excellent question. Goes right to the top of the list along with question number one.

15

Transparency Questions

by Vanderhoven7 in

here are some questions to ask witnesses.

how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

transparency questions.

Vanderhoven7

Here are some questions to ask Witnesses. How would you alter or improve or add to them?

TRANSPARENCY QUESTIONS

1.How confident are you that your religion is true?

Do you ever have doubts about your religion?
Are there any issues about your religion that trouble you? Or is it all good?
Do you see your religion as being the only religion that God approves of?

2. Would you say that all other religions are essentially satanic or part of Satan's kingdom?

Do you believe that Jehovah God rejected all other churches at some point in history?
When do you believe God rejected all of Christendom? What year? How do you know this?
What do you think will happen to people belonging to churches other than yours at if they are alive at Armageddon?

3. Do you believe, that with rare exceptions, only faithful JWs will survive Armageddon?

Do you believe Jehovah will destroy billions of people at Armageddon?
Do you believe that the Non-Witnesses God destroys will have no hope of a resurrection?
What if these same Non-JWs die a few years before Armageddon...might they get a resurrection?
Do you think its fair that God would eternally destroy people simply based on the timing of their death?

4. Would you say that Witnesses are free to question and even disagree with what comes down from your religion's headquarters?

What would happen if a Witness vocalized disagreement with a particular teaching?

What if they persisted in disagreement? Might they be disfellowshipped?

5. To your knowledge, is there some valid or honorable way out of your religion?

What would be the repercussions if you left the Witnesses?
Would you be shunned?
Would you shun a family member who left your religion because they no longer believe it to be true?
Do you think there could be many Witnesses who no longer believe Watchtower religion to be true

but pretend they still believe so they can keep their families intact?

6. Do you think that your religion disfellowships and shuns people for solely biblical reasons?

Do you consider unrepentant celebration of birthdays to be a biblical disfellowshipping offense?
Do you believe unrepentant accepting of blood transfusions is a disfellowshipping offense?

7. In a dire medical emergency would you refuse a blood transfusion that could save your child's life?

Would you allow some blood components to be transfused?
Which components does the Bible say are acceptable and which ones are not?
Do you know if Jehovah's Witnesses have been consistent in determining allowable components?
Why is plasma unacceptable when all components are individually on the WT acceptable list?
How about white blood cells (Leukocytes)? Do you know that millions are passed in mother's milk and

during organ transplants which are now acceptable to the Society?
Do you believe it is wrong for Christians to donate blood to blood-banks? (storing blood is sinful)
Is storing blood temporarily for testing purposes immoral?
Where do Witnesses with hemophilia get their blood-clotting components from? (blood banks)
Is it proper or moral to benefit from immorally donated blood? Aren't JWs being parasites?

8. If you somehow lost faith in your religion's primary leadership, would you lose your faith in God and the Bible?

Do you believe that your faith is primarily in God and His word? (II TIM.3:16)
Is it possible, without realizing it, that your faith is predominantly in men and not God or the Bible?
Can your leaders correct you and change your mind about what the Bible teaches?
Can the Bible ever correct you and change your mind contrary to what your leaders teach?
If I told you I only accept what a Bible scholar says the Bible teaches; would my faith ultimately be in the Bible or in the scholar?
9. Do you believe that the gospel Jehovah's Witnesses preach is the same gospel that Paul preached?

Gal.1:6-9 NWT Would it be legitimate for Christians to preach something beyond what Paul preached?
Can you summarize the gospel that Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching?
Imagine I've got 5 minutes to live... and I ask you how can I get right with God, have my sins all

forgiven and be granted eternal life?
What would Paul say to this dying person? (Acts 16:30-31, I Cor.15:1-4)
Do you believe that people today, can be saved or justified and have God's approval without any

affiliation with your religious organization? (criteria)

10. Do you believe that some of the original Great Crowd members will be alive when Armageddon strikes?

What year did the Great Crowd begin forming? (Not sure) Was it sometime after 1914? (Yes)
When did the Watchtower first realize that the great company was forming? (1935)
How did they discover this? Who informed the Watchtower that this group was forming?
If the Great Crowd started forming in 1920, how old would the youngest member be today?

11. Do you believe that Jehovah has promised to usher in a safe and secure new world before the 1914 generation expires?

How is it possible to maintain that Jesus was teaching that the 1914 generation would not pass away?
How old are babies born in 1914 today? (107)
If the generation Jesus spoke about would "surely" not pass away, you think He would be talking about a thriving number within that generation – don't you think?
Can you explain what Jesus meant by "this generation"? (hutos genaea) (overlapping)
Can you show where Matthew or any other gospel writer employs a similar meaning?

12. Do you believe that less than 150,000 faithful Christians existed prior to the 20th century?

(From 33 A.D. to 1900 A.D.)

What about the millions who were martyred for Christ during this time frame?
It is estimated that 2 million Christians were martyred in the first 3 centuries.
Were these mostly fake Christians? (must have been)
How can you judge when you don't know them?