@Reciprocity
hint: strike 2, barking up the wrong tree fella.
Here is a better place for discussions on the Trinity.
There are oodles of Jws on Quora who are chomping at the bit waiting for you!
See you there.
Vander
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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The Deity of Jesus Christ
by Reciprocity infair warning, i am not a jehovah's witness believer, but i am curious about what it is you believe and why you believe it.
so i am interested in talking to you instead of reading about you from my own christian perspective.
after all, who understands what jehovah's witness believes better than a jehovah's witness?
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The Deity of Jesus Christ
by Reciprocity infair warning, i am not a jehovah's witness believer, but i am curious about what it is you believe and why you believe it.
so i am interested in talking to you instead of reading about you from my own christian perspective.
after all, who understands what jehovah's witness believes better than a jehovah's witness?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Reciprocity,
Welcome to the forum.
Just for your information, this is an ex-Jehovah Witness Forum. The rare Jehovah's Witness that shows up here is challenged by many who reject the Bible altogether.
Translation, you won't get much traction or debate with this subject; but you probably will needlessly provoke considerable criticism from an outspoken Atheist segment herein.
Better to start by introducing yourself and tell us where you are coming from and then feel free to comment on what you find before launching out with faith challenges.
Just a suggestion from a born-again believer.
Peace
Vanderhoven
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
More of the same disparagement
“They say that it is sufficient to read the bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago.” (The Watchtower, August 15, 1981, pp. 28-29)
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.” (The Watch Tower, September 15, 1910, p. 298, Watchtower Reprints, p. 4685)
“On occasion opposers will question the various teachings that Jehovah’s people hold in common … They will declare that all one needs to do is to read the Bible. But Christendom has been reading the Bible for centuries.” (The Watchtower, March 1, 1983, p. 25)
“We must not lose sight of the fact that God is directing his organization … To turn away from Jehovah and his organization, to spurn the direction of ‘the faithful and discreet slave,’ and to rely simply on personal Bible reading and interpretation is to become like a solitary tree in a parched land.” (The Watchtower, June 1, 1985, pp. 19-20)
“Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.” (The Watchtower, December 1, 1981, p. 27)
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
The Bible is inadequate according to the Faithful Slave.
“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” (The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587)
“We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” (The Watchtower, February 15, 1981, p. 19)
“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? (Matt. 24:45, 47). No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. … They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. … Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight … For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, and our other publications.” (Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p. 3)
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A bit of history ... for you history buffs
by RR ini wasn't sure where to post this.
not sure why i'm posting this.
it's only going to add fuel to the fire.
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Vanderhoven7
I have met people who say that babies who die will burn forever for failing to be born again. Others say they automatically go to heaven because they have not reached an age of accountability.
One of my favorite stories comes from Germany during the height of WWII. A Jewish family was separated when being herded out of the train cars into the extermination camp at Auschwitz. A little boy broke out of his line and ran to see his father in another line. As the soldiers ordered him back into his own line, his son asked, "Will I see you after the showers Father?" The Father hesitated and replied, "Yes Son, after the showers." The Christian writing this commented, "If that's not true, I could have thought of a better gospel".
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Informative Video
by Vanderhoven7 ininteresting video to pass on to those being influenced by jehovah's witnesses.
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https://youtu.be/gdwhdj7plwo.
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Vanderhoven7
Interesting video to pass on to those being influenced by Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Drearyweather,
Of course, those with only the OT scriptures might indeed need to have someone explain that Jesus was the Messiah being talked about. This is exactly what the Apostles began doing at Pentecost.
But now we have the New Testament which clarifies that Jesus is the Messiah that was cut off for our salvation. People can respond in faith to the written word just as they could to the spoken word at Pentecost. The scriptures are sufficient today to reveal Christ and thoroughly equip the believer. Ii Timothy 3:15-16
A man stranded on a deserted island with only a Bible can come to saving faith in Christ without the church or an organization of men.
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that people can be saved and sanctified through reading and studying the Bible alone without knowing anything about the Watchtower organization?
Dean writes:
Absolutely not.
NOBODY can understand the Bible without the Jehovah’s false Witnesses’ watchtower organization of MEN telling them what the Bible means
Their founder once said that if you did just read the Bible alone, without his or the organizations’ input, you would fall into “apostate teachings”.
Isn’t that extremely amusing?!
If i read the Bible and Bible ALONE, i will believe “apostate teachings”....
"Jehovah gives us sound counsel through his Word and through his organization, using the publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave.” ( ie: the watchtower organization ) (Matthew 24:45; 2 Timothy 3:16) How foolish to reject good advice and insist on our own way! We “must be swift about hearing” when Jehovah, “the One teaching men knowledge,” counsels us through his channel of communication.—James 1:19; Psalm 94:10."
Watchtower, 1973 July 1st p.402 "Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God’s holy spirit or force (Zech,4:6) Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to his praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.", "How very much true Christians appreciate associating with the only organization on earth that understands the ‘deep things of God’! Direction by God’s spirit enables Jehovah’s servants to have divine light in a world of spiritual darkness."
"Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization. ( ie: the watchtower organisation )" (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)
"Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )
"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization ( ie: the watchtower ), not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 587.)
"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.( ie: the watchtower )" (The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8.)
KINGDOM MINISTRY SEPTEMBER 2007, QUESTIONS BOX
Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.
No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.
Throughout the earth, Jehovah’s people are receiving ample spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings, assemblies, and conventions, as well as through the publications of Jehovah’s organization. Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God’s people may be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought” and remain “stabilized in the faith.” (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7) Surely we are grateful for Jehovah’s spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.—Matt. 24:45-47.
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Baihi
<<“Come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation!”>>
Here is a question I asked on QUORA
Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that people can be saved and sanctified through reading and studying the Bible alone without knowing anything about the Watchtower organization?
Sergio SaavedraMember of Jehovah's Witnesses for decades respondedNo, we don’t believe that.
Many people try to reduce the idea of salvation to a very brief explanation, a kind of slogan; sometimes only one word.
But the Bible is a little more thorough about it:
- John 17:3: “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” —So yes, we need to come to know the only true God and also to know Jesus Christ.
- 2 Timothy 3:15: “From infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” —And yes, we need to know the holy writings, the Bible, in addition to have faith in Christ, or as a way to have faith.
- John 20:31: “But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” —We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ or Messiah and the Son of God.
- John 3:16: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone execising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” —So, we need to exercise faith in God’s Son.
- John 3:36: “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life.” —This shows that obedience is connected to faith.
- Luke 18:18–21: “And one of the rulers questioned him, saying: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and your mother.’”” —So, according to Christ Jesus, we have to do good works and obey God’s commandments.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.” —Our moral conduct is directly implied in inheriting God’s Kingdom or not.
- Luke 10:25–28: “Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: “Teacher, what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?” He said to him: “What is written in the Law? How do you read?” In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” He said to him: “You answered correctly; keep doing this and you will get life.”” —Christ also said that loving God and our neighbour is essential.
- Joel 2:32: “And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” —Thus, we need to know and respect the name of God and especially to rely on and trust in the One who bears that name. That implies true repentance and trust in Jehovah’s forgiveness, according to verses 12 and 13; it also implies truly coming to know him, trust him, obey him, and put him first in our life.
- Romans 10:13, 14: “For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?” —Everything is connected; there is an interesting chain here: we need to call on God’s name, but for that, first we need faith, and for that, first we need some degree of knowledge.
- Romans 6:23: “For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” —Ultimately, everlasting life is not something we can earn, it is a gift from God for those who meet His requirements.
So, salvation is a little more complicated than “only faith”, “only works”, “faith and works”, “study of God’s Word”, etc. It is a free gift, but some requirements are specified in the Bible.
And one of them is belonging to the Christian congregation.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, believe that, in view of Scriptural patterns like God requiring the ancient Israelites, and later the first-century Christians, to congregate for worship (organized worship that included singing, readings from the Scriptures, and public prayer), it is reasonable to conclude that today, too, God would expect his friends to worship him in an organized fashion.
And we also think that there are benefits from worshipping God as part of a congregation, which might be one of His reasons to ask that from us.
For instance, the Scriptures liken the genuine worshipper to one who is traveling over a cramped road; and in another instance, to a runner in a race. (Matthew 7:14; 1 Corinthians 9:24–27) When running a long, hard race over difficult terrain, a runner may easily tire out and eventually give out. However, a runner can often push himself beyond his personal threshold if he has encouragement from others. Likewise, a spiritually-minded person can successfully maintain his relationship with God despite adversities if he has encouragement from other worshippers.
This explains the words at Hebrews 10:24, 25:
“Let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together.”
In fact, the Scriptures state that true worshippers would render worship as brothers and sisters, united as a figurative body. A body united by a bond of love and peace. For example, Ephesians 4:2, 3:
“I . . . appeal to you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all humility and mildness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, earnestly endeavoring to maintain the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace.”
How could we comply with this admonition if our worship were independent and detached from other worshippers?
We have the conviction that it is God’s will that instead of being a loose association of spiritually-minded individuals, true worshippers merge into a tight community of faith. The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be “fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor 1:10) Those words would make little sense if God wanted people to worship him only as individuals apart from one another.
To us, it is clear that evidence from the Bible points to an organized form of worship as the kind that is acceptable to God. And the organized religion that the Scriptures describe, the one that God sponsors, can give you the support you require to be successful in satisfying your spiritual needs and receive the free gift of salvation for those who exercise faith in Jesus. (Mat 5:3; John 3:16)"
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Watchtower Disparages the Bible
by Vanderhoven7 ini'm looking for wts quotations that contrast with ii timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.. here is one from way back..
"...people cannot see the divine plan in studying the bible by itself...if he then lays them [scripture studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
on the other hand, if he had merely read the scripture studies with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures," (watchtower, sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
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Vanderhoven7
I'm looking for WTS quotations that contrast with II Timothy 3:15-16 whereby they downplay scripture.
Here is one from way back.
"...people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself...if he then lays them [Scripture Studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
Got any more?