Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

@Lastmanstanding

Relying on Kik and others here:

30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.

AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT
GLORY.

Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds"
necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not
read that thought into the text. Is. 19:1 states "See the Lord rides
on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt
shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in
the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a
cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see
the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather
used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus
coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of
judgment.

The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power.
This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers
to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty.

That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27
reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the
Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate. Titus was
merely his instrument.

31. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT
SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER
TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM
ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Mi.1:1-3

The trumpet represents a proclamation. In this case it is the
gospel. The term angelos is frequently used in the New Testament
to refer to earthly messengers (i.e. the followers of Christ)
Lu.7:24, 9:32, Mk.1:2 II Cor. 8:33 They carry the gospel
message and gather the elect into the kingdom throughout the
earth (from one end of heaven to the other).

32. NOW LEARN A PARABLE OF THE FIG TREE; WHEN
HIS BRANCH IS YET TENDER, AND PUTTETH FORTH
LEAVES, YE KNOW THAT SUMMER IS NIGH: 33. SO LIKEWISE

YE, WHEN YE SHALL SEE THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT IS

NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS.

The Christians Christ addressed were to KNOW the time of
Jerusalem's destruction; so they could take immediate flight to the
mountains. They knew that the Abomination of desolation
referred to the surrounding gentile armies that would make
Jerusalem a desolation (compare Mat.24: 15, 16 with Luke 21:21-
24). That was the cue/sign. And that is why no Christian perished
in the destruction!

34. VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL
NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
(23:38)

There would be a complete fulfillment of every detail of this
prophecy to the generation to which Christ referred.

35. HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY.

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

Lastmanstanding,

Actually I give no fodder to the Watchtower on this subject. From my perspective, the signs or the composite sign as Watchtowerites like to say, does not apply to the second coming but to His coming in judgment on Jerusalem in century one.

The thesis I hold did not originate with me. I owe my understanding of Matthew 24 to Marcellus Kik's work entitled, Matthew 24.

Verses 1-35 outlining what would and wouldn't happen to Jerusalem in the first century and verses 36 - end describing what would happen at his second advent.

The disciples no doubt confused the destruction of the temple with the final judgment. Jesus clarified or distinguish the two events quite clearly i.e., what would happen to his generation and what would transpire at the end of world.

Why do you think my understanding is cause for concern?

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

@Lastmanstanding

I agree it would be illogical to say that in verse 27 Jesus was talking about something that would happen in the first century. The parousia is a future event not associated with the destruction of Jerusalem. Let me paraphrase what I believe Jesus was saying here.

"Look guys these will be terrible times during the seige. People will say Christ is secretly present, here on earth to deliver us. Don't believe them. Don't confuse the destruction of Jerusalem with my second coming. For my parousia or personal second coming to earth will be a worldwide event that will be a snare to all living on earth. There will no secret presence involved in that day."

In other words Jesus interjected this comment about his second coming to earth at the end of time to distinguish it from the tribulation that would break out on Jerusalem.

Now you don't have to see it this way but I believe Jesus was clarifying what would and what wouldn't happen during the tribulation that was to come upon his own generation.

23 ¶Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26¶Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

Hi Lastmanstanding,

I Am not Preterist. The second coming of Christ (parousia) is still future. Jesus, in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Like 21 separates the Judgment on Jerusalem and the Judgment on the world in the text. The first judgment was to be anticipated, one could run to the hills to avoid it; prayer could help mitigate the flight, it would be local to Jerusalem and Judea, it would involve days of divine vengeance, followed by the destruction of the temple and the dispersion of surviving Jews, but all would be fulfilled in Christ's generation.

The opposite is true of the second coming, verses 35 to the end concerning world judgment at the parousia. That single day could not be expected, it would be a surprise like in Noah’s day, no one could run from it, it would be worldwide

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

@Lastmanstanding

OK, as I see it; immediately after the tribulation which Christians fled to the mountains to escape, horror was coming on Jerusalem. For brevity sake, let's deal with verses 29-31, one verse at a time.

The words are proverbial. Vultures and eagles ascertain where the
dead body is and come around it to devour. A picture of the
Roman army, Jerusalem resembling the dead corpse Hos.8:1
Hab.1:8 The Jewish nation was morally, spiritually, and judicially
dead. Jerusalem was like a dead putrid corpse once Jesus had
pronounced the death sentence Mat 23:38 "Your house is left to
you desolate.." For implies a reason for what is said and attests to
the certainty that the Son of man would come to destroy the city.

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:

Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.

WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?

Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)

3

Must Watch Movie

by Vanderhoven7 in

want to see a great movie on netflix: try.

"the guernsey literary and potato peel pie society".

saw this two night ago and have encouraged others to watch.

Vanderhoven7

Want to see a great movie on Netflix: Try

"The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society"

Saw this two night ago and have encouraged others to watch

In 1946, a London-based writer begins exchanging letters with residents on the island of Guernsey, which was German-occupied during WWII. Feeling compelled to visit the island, she starts to get a picture of what it was like during the occupation.

Release date: 2018 (USA)

Director: Mike Newell

Screenplay by: Kevin Hood; Don Roos; Tom Bezucha

Adapted from: The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society

Music by: Alexandra Harwood

Box office: $23 million

Audience rating summary

5

4

3

2

1

4.7

877 ratings

Audience r

7

How can taking oaths if allegiance to the USA align with political neutrality?

by Vanderhoven7 in

how can taking oaths of allegiance to the usa align with political neutrality?.

oath of allegiance to the united states of america.

in 1891 charles taze russell pledged the oath of allegiance.. .

Vanderhoven7

Hi Etude,

All US citizens prior to 1972 had to sign an oath of allegiance in order to get a passport. So all WTS F&DS Presidents prior to 72 needed to sign oaths to travel abroad.

G72 10/8 p. 29 Watching the World

Passport Oath

“United States passport applicants will be interested in the following statement from the August 3, 1972, Postal Bulletin: “On the basis of recent court action and until further notice, the requirement that an oath of allegiance be sworn to or affirmed is no longer a part of the passport application process. Accordingly . . . any applicant who desires may strike the oath of allegiance from the application. Postal officials should, of course, continue to administer the oath as to the truth of the statements in the application and that the photograph is a likeness of all persons to be included in the passport.”

7

How can taking oaths if allegiance to the USA align with political neutrality?

by Vanderhoven7 in

how can taking oaths of allegiance to the usa align with political neutrality?.

oath of allegiance to the united states of america.

in 1891 charles taze russell pledged the oath of allegiance.. .

Vanderhoven7

How can taking oaths OF allegiance to the USA align with political neutrality?

Oath of Allegiance to The United States of America

In 1891 Charles Taze Russell pledged the oath of allegiance.

In 1922 Joseph Rutherford pledged the oath of allegiance.

In 1935 Watchtower published this article about one of Jehovah’s witnesses:

In 1952 Milton Henschel pledged the oath of allegiance.

In 1966 Nathan Knorr pledged the oath of allegiance.

In 1966 Fred Franz pledged the oath of allegiance.

In 1968 Watchtower wrote the following of Jehovah’s Witnesses

in Malawi and why they suffered horrendous persecution:

In 1971 Nathan Knorr again pledged the oath of allegiance.

Oath of Office for Military Personnel in the United States Army:

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

Sound reasoning BluesBrother!

63

Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW in

is bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding a prelude to the great tribulation?.

full disclosure: i still don't believe in the bible's claims about the existence of the supernatural, even of jehovah god (i'm an atheist and a scientific/philosophical naturalist), but i am asking this question because recent events are starting to seem (to me) to fit well the description of some prophecies in the bible.

consider the following.. several hours ago (on 11-26-2021) as i was about to enter a local fred meyer store of my city (in suburb or small city in the metro area of a large city) a person i know told me that a moment earlier a person left the store in a hurry with a cart load up with unpaid merchandise (i think i was told it was groceries but i don't remember that for sure).

Vanderhoven7

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation.

In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.! "

The article then goes on to blow it saying there is a dual and broader fulfillment of Matthew 24 verses 1-35.

Vanderhoven7

Posts by Vanderhoven7

How can taking oaths OF allegiance to the USA align with political neutrality?