Posts by Vanderhoven7

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

<<But as scholar pointed out, the Gentile Times ended in 1914.>>

Again, assertion is not proof.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

<<The credible evidence that Christ was enthroned in 1914 is the fact that we are seeing the Sign of His Presence>>

Nah. Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century' nothing to do with newspaper exegesis Witnesses use to support 1914.

There were no signs given in Matthew 24 to announce or give evidence for Christ's parousia.

You have shown no credible evidence for 1914. I have presented scripture to support first century enthronement. Plain and simple.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

You debunked nothing. Merely asserting speculation is not proof of anything. 1914 is solidly based in your mind perhaps, but not in scripture. Can you falsify that Jesus second advent did not occur in 1934?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman and Scholar.

There is no credible scriptural evidence for Christ being enthroned in 1914. You mentioned Daniel 2:44. Adam Maarschalk has a great article on this demonstrating that Jesus kingdom rule began in the first century. Note the scholarly exegesis he provides:

"Daniel 2:44 is indeed a pivotal verse, as it states clearly the timing for the setting up of God’s eternal kingdom:

“And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.”

As many scholars agree, Rome was the fourth kingdom depicted in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision. Rome was preceded by Nebuchadnezzar’s own Babylonian kingdom (#1), Medo-Persia (#2), and Greece (#3). These were successive empires, and the Roman empire ceased to exist in 476 AD (Sources: BBC History, History Learning Site, Rome.Info, Wikipedia, About.com’s Ancient History). Daniel, a true and faithful prophet, recorded that God’s kingdom would be set up before all four of those kingdoms ceased to exist.

By the year 600 AD the final earthly kingdom revealed in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision had been gone for more than 100 years. By 1500 AD that fourth kingdom had already been gone for a full millennium (1000 years). What are we to make, then, of popular teachings which say that, as of the year 2014, God has not yet set up His kingdom? We are now 1538 years beyond the parameters of Daniel’s prophecy: “And in the days of these kings…” If God’s kingdom has not yet been established, it would seem that Daniel was not a true prophet.

The problem, however, is not with Daniel, but rather with premillennialism and any other school of thought which says that God’s kingdom is not yet here, or that when it comes it will take on earthly characteristics (e.g. a temple and a spiritual headquarters in Jerusalem, Israel) that the world has not yet seen.

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).

Daniel 7 Reveals the Timing of the Kingdom

Coming back to Daniel, he later had a vision of four beasts, the fourth of which was “dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong,” and having 10 horns (Daniel 7:7). Daniel also foresaw “One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven” to the Ancient of Days – a picture of Jesus’ ascension.

“I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed” (Daniel 7:13-14).

In the rest of the chapter, Daniel sees or is told three times that the kingdom would be given into the hands of the saints:

“But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever” (verse 18).

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom” (verses 21-22).

“Then the saints shall be given into [the fourth beast’s] hand for a time and times and half a time. But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him” (verses 25-27).

Parallel to this is Revelation 13:1-8, where John also saw a beast with 10 horns speaking blasphemous things and making war with the saints and overcoming them for 42 months (which is equal to 3.5 years, and also equal to Daniel’s “time and times and half a time”). In our study of Revelation, we saw how this was fulfilled in Nero and his 3.5 year campaign of persecution against Christians in the Roman empire from November 64 AD – June 68 AD (see here and here). In Daniel 7 then, we first see that Jesus received the kingdom immediately after His ascension, and then we see that God’s kingdom was set up and given into the hands of His people during the days of the fourth kingdom/beast, Rome.

The Gospels Reveal the Timing of the Kingdom

John the Baptist and Jesus, in their day, repeatedly proclaimed that the kingdom of God was at hand. Then Jesus told His disciples (Matthew 16:27-28) and the crowds (Mark 8:34-9:1) that He would come in His kingdom while some of them were still alive.

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matt. 16:27-28; see also Matthew 10:23).

In Luke 21 Jesus described a series of events which were to occur before the temple would fall (Luke 21:5-7) and before His generation would pass away (Luke 21:32). According to Jesus, when His disciples saw those things take place, they could be sure that God’s kingdom was near.

“Then He spoke to them a parable: ‘Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near‘” (Luke 21:29-31).

Matthew 21: The Parable of the Tenants

The Parable of the Tenants (Matthew 21:33-46) is also important in regard to when God’s kingdom was to be established, and we see in this parable a parallel to Daniel 7. Jesus, speaking to the chief priests and elders of the people (Matt. 21:23), exposes the vinedressers (the stewards) of God’s vineyard for their long-term persecution, beating, and killing of God’s servants, and for finally conspiring to kill Him and attempt to seize His inheritance. Jesus continued the discussion in this way:

“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:40-44).

Jesus thus proclaimed that the kingdom would be taken away from the corrupt Jewish religious leaders at the time of their judgment for shedding the blood of God’s saints and God’s Son. (This judgment was to fall upon Jesus’ own generation, according to Matthew 23:29-37.) It was at this time that the kingdom would be given to a fruit-bearing nation, the church.

As in Daniel 2, Jesus is the rock that crushes His opponents. In this case, faithless Israel, except for a remnant, had set itself up in opposition to Him, and the Rock would fall and “grind him to powder.” This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem, Israel, and the temple in 70 AD. At the same time, Jesus is a mighty Rock and fortress for those who trust in Him.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi DJW,

Yes, as I see it, Jesus was enthroned at his Ascension. i also believe that shortly after his coming, the resurrection to judgment will begin and the millennium inaugurated and that He will reign with his saints on the earth until all creation is perfected.

The WTS did get some things right, nonetheless every doctrine which is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is not in the Bible including much of their eschatology and their two tier soteriology.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman,

That the WTS has misinterpreted and misapplied biblical prophecy on numerous occasions is evident to all but some clueless GB followers. I can understand that many who are aware don't to want to acknowledge it publicly. Are you among them? After all admitting this might cast doubt on the Slave's mandate and ability to interpret scripture for believers.

The onus to demonstrate that I was wrong about the WTS never getting it right is on you btw.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

True, the messenger does not invalidate the message. I agree, what Furuli says about the bogus WTS Faithful Slave is virtually flawless. Man-made, Man-run organization that could never get it right.

You say that the Watchtower Society has interpreted prophecy accurately. Lets examine the WTS record.

Can you list for me what you know are false or misapplied interpretations of Biblical prophecy made by your organization followed by a list of all the clearly correct interpretations of Biblical prophecy they have made?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Why reference an apostate (Furuli) to support your organization's multiple assumption speculation.

As I said, I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never got a single prophecy right.

What is not based on speculation or newspaper exegesis is the fact that the The WTS was never led by the Spirit of God.

The New Testament says that Christ was enthroned in the first century. Col.1:13

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Someone on this forum a while back posted the following litany of WTS assumptions related tp 1914

Assumption 1: Nebuchadnezzar’s dream from Daniel chapter 4 has a fulfillment beyond his day.

The book of Daniel makes no mention whatsoever of any fulfillment beyond his day. There is no indication that what happened to Nebuchadnezzar is some type of prophetic drama or minor fulfillment to a major future antitype.

Assumption 2: The seven times of the dream are meant to represent 360 years each.

When this formula applies elsewhere in the Bible, the year-for-a-day ratio is explicitly stated or clearly implied. Here we are assuming that it applies.

Assumption 3: This prophecy applies to the enthronement of Jesus Christ.

The point of this dream and its subsequent fulfillment was to provide an object lesson to the King, and mankind in general, that rulership and the appointment of a ruler is the sole prerogative of Jehovah God. There is nothing to indicate that the enthronement of the Messiah is indicated here. Even if it is, there is nothing to indicate that this is a calculation given to show us when that enthronement takes place.

Assumption 4: This prophecy was given to establish the chronological extent of the appointed times of the nations.

There is only one reference to the appointed times of the nations in the Bible. At Luke 21:24 Jesus made no connection whatsoever between this phrase and anything contained in the book of Daniel.

Assumption 5: The appointed times of the nations began when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were taken into exile in Babylon.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate when the appointed times of the nations began, so this is pure speculation.

Assumption 6: The 70 years refers to 70 years in which Jerusalem would be destroyed.

Based on the wording of the Bible, the 70 years could refer to years in which the Jews were under the rule of Babylon. This would include the servitude when the nobles, including Daniel himself, were taken to Babylon, but the rest were allowed to stay and pay tribute to the King of Babylon. (Jer. 25:11–12)

Assumption 7: 607 B.C.E. is the year Jerusalem was destroyed and Judah’s king slain and the appointed times of the nations began.

Scholars agree on two years: 587 B.C.E. as the year of Jerusalem’s destruction, and 539 B.C.E. as the year in which Babylon fell. There is no more reason to accept 539 B.C.E. as valid then there is to accept 607 B.C.E. for Jerusalem’s destruction.

Assumption 8: 1914 marks the end of the trampling of Jerusalem and therefore the end of the appointed times of the nations.

There is no evidence that the trampling of Jerusalem by the nations ended in 1914.

Assumption 9: Satan and his demons were cast down in 1914.

Witnesses contend that Satan caused the First World War out of anger for being cast down. However, he was cast down in October of 1914 according to WTS interpretation, and yet the war began in August of that year and preparations for the war had been going on for a considerable time before that, as early as 1911. That would mean he had to get angry before he was cast down and the woe to the earth began before he was cast down.

Assumption 10: The presence of Jesus Christ is invisible and is separate from his coming at Armageddon.

There is strong evidence in the Bible that the presence of Christ and his arrival at Armageddon are one and the same. There is no hard evidence to indicate that Jesus would rule from heaven invisibly for over 100 years before manifesting himself visibly prior to the destruction of this old system of things.

Assumption 11: The injunction against Jesus’ followers getting knowledge of his installation as king as stated at Acts 1:6, 7 was lifted for Christians in our day.

This statement of Jesus would mean that the apostles of his day had no right to know when he would be enthroned as king of Israel–spiritual or otherwise. The meaning of Daniel’s prophecy of the 7 times was supposedly hidden from them. Yet, the significance of the 2,520 years was revealed to William Miller, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists in the early part of the 19th Century? That would mean the injunction was lifted for Christians in our day. Where in the Bible does it indicate that Jehovah has changed on this position and granted us foreknowledge of such times and seasons?

In Summation

To base the interpretation of a prophetic fulfillment on even one assumption opens the door for disappointment. If that one assumption is wrong, then the interpretation must fall by the wayside. Here we have 11 assumptions! What are the odds that all 11 are true?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never did get a prophecy right.