Posts by Vanderhoven7

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar

Why haven't you addressed my questions?

1. Are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?

2. Why or why not?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

I believe in letting scripture interpret scripture, especially when apocalyptic and figurative language is employed. Let's look at verse 29 for starters.

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:

Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.

WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword

shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea,

and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?

Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt...And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 2:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)

ALL THESE THINGS WERE TO HAPPEN TO THE GENERATION JESUS SPOKE ABOUT....NOT JUST SOME FOR HIS GENERATION AND SOME FOR OURS.

By the way Scholar...are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day? Why or why not?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar

It's not my opinion. The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.

.

Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

.

Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

.

Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the

desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in hisory;(Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19), a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.

"All these things" include the deportation. This will not happen to the Jews again subsequent to any future tribulation.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman,

You asked, "How?"

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains rare elements of sound interpretation.

In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

The 1914 parousia is bogus and spurious to scripture.

And as I said, everything in Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century and that obviously includes verse 30.

It also includes the Jews who survived the first century tribulation being deported into the surrounding nations. Luke 21:24

The question is, does the text allow for dual fulfillment. Will the Jews be deported once again? And the answer is a definite no.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

<<But as scholar pointed out, the Gentile Times ended in 1914.>>

Again, assertion is not proof.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

<<The credible evidence that Christ was enthroned in 1914 is the fact that we are seeing the Sign of His Presence>>

Nah. Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century' nothing to do with newspaper exegesis Witnesses use to support 1914.

There were no signs given in Matthew 24 to announce or give evidence for Christ's parousia.

You have shown no credible evidence for 1914. I have presented scripture to support first century enthronement. Plain and simple.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Fisherman,

You debunked nothing. Merely asserting speculation is not proof of anything. 1914 is solidly based in your mind perhaps, but not in scripture. Can you falsify that Jesus second advent did not occur in 1934?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman and Scholar.

There is no credible scriptural evidence for Christ being enthroned in 1914. You mentioned Daniel 2:44. Adam Maarschalk has a great article on this demonstrating that Jesus kingdom rule began in the first century. Note the scholarly exegesis he provides:

"Daniel 2:44 is indeed a pivotal verse, as it states clearly the timing for the setting up of God’s eternal kingdom:

“And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.”

As many scholars agree, Rome was the fourth kingdom depicted in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision. Rome was preceded by Nebuchadnezzar’s own Babylonian kingdom (#1), Medo-Persia (#2), and Greece (#3). These were successive empires, and the Roman empire ceased to exist in 476 AD (Sources: BBC History, History Learning Site, Rome.Info, Wikipedia, About.com’s Ancient History). Daniel, a true and faithful prophet, recorded that God’s kingdom would be set up before all four of those kingdoms ceased to exist.

By the year 600 AD the final earthly kingdom revealed in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision had been gone for more than 100 years. By 1500 AD that fourth kingdom had already been gone for a full millennium (1000 years). What are we to make, then, of popular teachings which say that, as of the year 2014, God has not yet set up His kingdom? We are now 1538 years beyond the parameters of Daniel’s prophecy: “And in the days of these kings…” If God’s kingdom has not yet been established, it would seem that Daniel was not a true prophet.

The problem, however, is not with Daniel, but rather with premillennialism and any other school of thought which says that God’s kingdom is not yet here, or that when it comes it will take on earthly characteristics (e.g. a temple and a spiritual headquarters in Jerusalem, Israel) that the world has not yet seen.

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).

Daniel 7 Reveals the Timing of the Kingdom

Coming back to Daniel, he later had a vision of four beasts, the fourth of which was “dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong,” and having 10 horns (Daniel 7:7). Daniel also foresaw “One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven” to the Ancient of Days – a picture of Jesus’ ascension.

“I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed” (Daniel 7:13-14).

In the rest of the chapter, Daniel sees or is told three times that the kingdom would be given into the hands of the saints:

“But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever” (verse 18).

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom” (verses 21-22).

“Then the saints shall be given into [the fourth beast’s] hand for a time and times and half a time. But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him” (verses 25-27).

Parallel to this is Revelation 13:1-8, where John also saw a beast with 10 horns speaking blasphemous things and making war with the saints and overcoming them for 42 months (which is equal to 3.5 years, and also equal to Daniel’s “time and times and half a time”). In our study of Revelation, we saw how this was fulfilled in Nero and his 3.5 year campaign of persecution against Christians in the Roman empire from November 64 AD – June 68 AD (see here and here). In Daniel 7 then, we first see that Jesus received the kingdom immediately after His ascension, and then we see that God’s kingdom was set up and given into the hands of His people during the days of the fourth kingdom/beast, Rome.

The Gospels Reveal the Timing of the Kingdom

John the Baptist and Jesus, in their day, repeatedly proclaimed that the kingdom of God was at hand. Then Jesus told His disciples (Matthew 16:27-28) and the crowds (Mark 8:34-9:1) that He would come in His kingdom while some of them were still alive.

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matt. 16:27-28; see also Matthew 10:23).

In Luke 21 Jesus described a series of events which were to occur before the temple would fall (Luke 21:5-7) and before His generation would pass away (Luke 21:32). According to Jesus, when His disciples saw those things take place, they could be sure that God’s kingdom was near.

“Then He spoke to them a parable: ‘Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near‘” (Luke 21:29-31).

Matthew 21: The Parable of the Tenants

The Parable of the Tenants (Matthew 21:33-46) is also important in regard to when God’s kingdom was to be established, and we see in this parable a parallel to Daniel 7. Jesus, speaking to the chief priests and elders of the people (Matt. 21:23), exposes the vinedressers (the stewards) of God’s vineyard for their long-term persecution, beating, and killing of God’s servants, and for finally conspiring to kill Him and attempt to seize His inheritance. Jesus continued the discussion in this way:

“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:40-44).

Jesus thus proclaimed that the kingdom would be taken away from the corrupt Jewish religious leaders at the time of their judgment for shedding the blood of God’s saints and God’s Son. (This judgment was to fall upon Jesus’ own generation, according to Matthew 23:29-37.) It was at this time that the kingdom would be given to a fruit-bearing nation, the church.

As in Daniel 2, Jesus is the rock that crushes His opponents. In this case, faithless Israel, except for a remnant, had set itself up in opposition to Him, and the Rock would fall and “grind him to powder.” This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem, Israel, and the temple in 70 AD. At the same time, Jesus is a mighty Rock and fortress for those who trust in Him.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi DJW,

Yes, as I see it, Jesus was enthroned at his Ascension. i also believe that shortly after his coming, the resurrection to judgment will begin and the millennium inaugurated and that He will reign with his saints on the earth until all creation is perfected.

The WTS did get some things right, nonetheless every doctrine which is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is not in the Bible including much of their eschatology and their two tier soteriology.