Posts by Vanderhoven7

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

In your view, is Matthew 24:34 referring to the 1914 generation or to his own generation or to both?

And are you praying that your flight will not occur in winter or on a Sabbath day?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

<<1914 is right there at the very centre of the Olivet Discourse>>

False! 1914 is nowhere to be found in the Olivet Discourse.

So Scholar, do you bring a jacket with you when you work on your roof? Or do you plan to disobey Jesus and run into the house to get your jacket when fleeing time comes?

Do you, like Fisherman, pray that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath Day? Why or why not?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman,

"You don't see it, Van."

You are right, I do not see what is not there.

I only see what is there

And 1914 is not there. It is only there to those who are willing to accept a man-made organization's convoluted assumption based non-scholarly speculations. And that's the truth.

"Nothing more I can say"

Yes, there is something more you can say. You can tell me what Jesus' hearers would have prayed about the Sabbath and about winter to mitigate the conditions of their escape and then what you are literally praying today about the poetic Sabbath Day and poetic Winter. What exactly are you praying?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Fisherman

You must have missed it then. Check back several posts.

Clark summarizes verse 30 this way:

Verse 30

Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man - The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

Jesus clearly did answer all their questions. Verses 36-44 answered their concerns about the parousia.

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So you pray that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?

What do you think in Matthew 24:20 Jesus was asking those listening back then to pray?

What do you think Jesus wanted JWs to pray today?

Was Jesus instruction meant literally for those listening to him and symbolically for us today?

It would be interesting to see a side-by-side sample of the two prayers. Perhaps you might share how you pray that your flight won't be in winter or on a Sabbath day.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

A good book you might want to read is "Matthew 24" by Marcelus Kik some of which I share on this and other verses.

30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)

Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.

THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN

"The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be

such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal

manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes

shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of

God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of

the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places,

the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the

Jewish people wherever found."

AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT
GLORY.

Does the phrase "coming (erchomai not parousia) in the clouds"
necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not
read that thought into the text. Isaiah 19:1 states "See the Lord rides
on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt
shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in
the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a
cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see
the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather
used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus
coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of
judgment.

The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power.
This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers
to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty.

That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27
reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the
Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate (Titus
merely being his instrument.) Confirmation is found in Jesus'

exclusion parables.

Mt.21: 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh

(ἔρχομαι erchomai), what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked

men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which

shall render him the fruits in their seasons. See also Lu.20:15,16

"The timing on this is relevant this coming in vengeance, would climax the tribulation and occur in the lifespan of Christ's own generation. Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (ἔρχομαι erchomai) in his kingdom. (Mt.10:23 Lu.9:27)

Finally, in the often-overlooked trial scene in 26:64, Jesus says to the high priest that “from now on you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The key phrase in this passage is “from now on”, which is about as close as Matthew comes to the outright investment of glory which John gives to the cross when he attests Jesus as saying things like “Now the son of man is glorified”, “Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out”, and “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31, 32; 13:31). The conviction which both Matthew and John unambiguously express is that the exaltation of the son of man would be seen not merely at the end of history but also in the matrix of events unfolding from his messianic work in the middle of history."

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar

Why haven't you addressed my questions?

1. Are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day?

2. Why or why not?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar,

I believe in letting scripture interpret scripture, especially when apocalyptic and figurative language is employed. Let's look at verse 29 for starters.

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:

Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.

WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword

shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea,

and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?

Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt...And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 2:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
Mat.16:28)

ALL THESE THINGS WERE TO HAPPEN TO THE GENERATION JESUS SPOKE ABOUT....NOT JUST SOME FOR HIS GENERATION AND SOME FOR OURS.

By the way Scholar...are you praying that your flight will not be in winter or on a Sabbath day? Why or why not?

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Scholar

It's not my opinion. The synoptics support that the great tribulation Jesus spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.

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Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

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Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

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Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the

desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in hisory;(Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19), a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.

"All these things" include the deportation. This will not happen to the Jews again subsequent to any future tribulation.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman,

You asked, "How?"

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains rare elements of sound interpretation.

In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Vanderhoven7

The 1914 parousia is bogus and spurious to scripture.

And as I said, everything in Matthew 24:1-35 was fulfilled in the first century and that obviously includes verse 30.

It also includes the Jews who survived the first century tribulation being deported into the surrounding nations. Luke 21:24

The question is, does the text allow for dual fulfillment. Will the Jews be deported once again? And the answer is a definite no.