My take is that the Father did not want the Hebrew pronunciation his name to be known... because another person was to be more important for mankind to know and that's why we have only have a sequence of consonants roughly 7000 times in the OT and 3 Hallelujahs in the NT. Knowing and using God's name did nothing for the self-righteous Pharisees because they rejected that central person, His only begotten Son.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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36
New Light, New Light!
by BoogerMan inmore accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.
september 2022 study watchtower - par.
14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.
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Vanderhoven7
Here are 3 commentaries on Romans 6:7
Barnes
Is freed - Greek, Is justified. The word here is used clearly in the sense of setting at liberty, or destroying the power or dominion. The word is often used in this sense; compare Act_13:38-39; compare a similar expression in 1Pe_4:1, “He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.” The design of the apostle is not to say that the Christian is perfect, but that sin has ceased to have dominion over him, as a master ceases to have power over a slave when he is dead. That dominion may be broken, so that the Christian may not be a slave to sin, and yet he may be conscious of many failings and of much imperfection; see Rom. 7.
Clarke
He that is dead is freed from sin - Δεδικαιωται, literally, is justified from sin; or, is freed or delivered from it. Does not this simply mean, that the man who has received Christ Jesus by faith, and has been, through believing, made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, has had his old man, all his evil propensities destroyed; so that he is not only justified freely from all sin, but wholly sanctified unto God? The context shows that this is the meaning. Every instance of violence is done to the whole scope and design of the apostle, by the opinion, that “this text is a proof that believers are not fully saved from sin in this life, because only he that is dead is freed from sin.” Then death is his justifier and deliverer! Base and abominable insinuation, highly derogatory to the glory of Christ!
Gill
For he that is dead, is freed from sin. This is not to be understood of a natural or a corporeal death; for this is the effect of sin, and is inflicted by way of punishment for it, on Christless persons; so far is it from being an atonement for sin, as the Jews (t) fancy; besides, there are many persons, who as they die in their sins, they will rise in them; though a natural death is alluded to, when persons are free from those laws and obligations to service and duty they are under whilst living: but here it is to be understood of a spiritual or mystical death, and of persons who are dead to the law, by the body of Christ; dead to sin by the sacrifice and grace of Christ; who are baptized into the death of Christ, and in imitation of him: such are "freed from sin"; not from the being of it; nor from the burden of it; nor from a continual war with it; nor from slips and falls into it; no, not even freed from it, in the most solemn services and acts of religion; but they are freed from the dominion of it, from servitude to it, and also from the guilt of it, and from obligation to punishment on account of it: they are, as it is in the Greek text, and as the Vulgate Latin and Arabic versions read, "justified from sin".
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
GB
As Boogerman suggests, why don't you just accept what the Bible says
Based on the scriptures, surely everyone who has faith/believes in Jesus' ransom is declared righteous - not just 144,000? God isn't partial, as Peter said.
(Romans 3:24) ...and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.
(Romans 3:28) For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.
(Romans 4:3) For what does the scripture say? “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
(Romans 5:1) Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith,...
(Romans 5:9) ...we have now been declared righteous by his blood,...
(Galatians 2:16) ….a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ.
(Galatians 3:24) So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith.
Romans 3:21-26 21 But now God has shown us His righteousness; the law and the prophets tell us about it...God's righteousness comes to all who believe, just by their believing in Jesus Christ. There is no distinction. All have sinned and are without God's glory. They become righteous by a gift of His love, by the ransom Christ Jesus paid to free them. God set Him up publicly to pour out His blood before God to take away sin through faith, to show His righteousness...Now He wanted to show His righteousness, to be righteous Himself and make righteous anyone who believes in Jesus. (Beck)
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
GB
And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:8
Great crowd has white robes, whereas the bride of Christ is wearing fine linen.
You are grasping at straws. Are you sure the white robes of the GC are not made of linen or covering linen garments? Does it say the GC is not wearing linen garments, i.e. that the GC members don't have any righteous acts and that they are not saints?
I notice that you are contrasting the "Great Crowd" and the 144,000 as a basis for making doctrinal conclusions. I don't think this is the intent of the scriptures here. For example, the 144,000 are described in Revelation 14 as being male virgins, so does that mean that none of the "Great Crowd" can be male virgins. Is that a legitimate conclusion?
- I think it's safe to say that we shouldn't contrast the 144,000 with the "Great Crowd" based on missing information as a basis for constructing doctrines.
All Christians are declared righteous based on their faith in Jesus; all Christians have one hope, all Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit or they do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9
BTW, You can buy white linen robes through Amazon real cheap.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
GB,
<<The "other sheep" haven't been credited righteousness yet so the only way not to die in Armageddon is to run ">>
Scripture please!
Romans 3:22 NKJV even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Have you not been credited righteousness already? I thought you were a believer. If you are, you should say only what the scriptures say....period.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Riley,
I agree.
LOOKING AT THE NUMBER 144,000 :
How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?
David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says:
The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)
IS THERE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT THE 144,000 AND THE "GREAT MULTITUDE" ARE IDENTICAL?
John's Literary Device in Revelation: Hearing & then Seeing
There is support for the idea that the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" are really the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that Saint John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton clearly demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing in :”Days of Vengeance:”
For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns
to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then
sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"
- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same
pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the
number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things
- after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold
a Great Multitude (v.9).
Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:
144,000 /CROWD
a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9 /7:9
b. Servants of God. 7:3 /7:15
c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22 7:14
d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 /7:17
e. Redeemed 14:3 /7:14
f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 /7:13,14
g. Standing before the throne 14:1,3 / 7:9
h. Before the Lamb 5:8 /7:9
i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 /7:15; 11:19
j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor.6:16 / 7:15
i. Dressed in white robes 6:11/ 7:9
j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 /7:14
h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; / 19:1
i. Spirit begotten 7:3 / I Jn. 5:1
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
Hi GB,
"I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures."
Well thank you for trying. But since you can't show me scripture, you do exactly what I asked you not to do. You give me human reasoning and then quote scripture that does not support your reasoning.
<<Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ>>.
Scripture please.
You talk about the Great Crowd being support for your beliefs. So list the scriptures that tell us members of the Great Crowd are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Vanderhoven7
GB.
You are good a listing bunches of scriptures without comment.
So here is your challenge... and a challenge to any Jehovah's Witness on this forum:
Just like Boogerman above, without human reasoning, just the scriptures, none of your words or thoughts or reasonings are needed or wanted.
List the scriptures that tell us there are Christians living today who are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?
SCRIPTURES ONLY THANK YOU!!!!
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According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?
by Vanderhoven7 ini know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.
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others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..
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Vanderhoven7
Hi TBK
What are we saved from?
Short answer- lostness (Jesus came to seek and to save the lost...like in the prodigal son story)
Long answer - scripturally speaking:
a. The Greek scriptures talk about salvation in three tenses, past, present and future. Past and present salvation is identified by the term “justification” All Christian believers were and are justified.
Acts 13:39 KJV — And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Romans 5:1 KJV — Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV — And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
b. Those who are justified have been saved or delivered from the future wrath, from power of darkness and transferred into the kingdom of Christ..
Romans 5:9 KJV — Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV — And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Colossians 1:13 KJV — Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (note: Christ's kingdom existed in century one.)
c. Being saved or justified means we have been saved or redeemed by his blood which involves the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:24 KJV — Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 1:14 KJV — In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 2:13 KJV — And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
d. Being saved or justified is a grace gift of God, based on the believers ongoing faith in Christ's death and resurrection (not in an organization or a religion)
1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV — (the good News) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV — For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Ephesians 2:8 KJV — For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2 Timothy 1:9 KJV — Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 3:5 KJV — Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
e. Not only does justification mean that the believers sins are forgiven, but on the positive side, that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to all believers.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 3:21-26 21 But now God has shown us His righteousness; the law and the prophets tell us about it...God's righteousness comes to all who believe, just by their believing in Jesus Christ. There is no distinction. All have sinned and are without God's glory. They become righteous by a gift of His love, by the ransom Christ Jesus paid to free them. God set Him up publicly to pour out His blood before God to take away sin through faith, to show His righteousness...Now He wanted to show His righteousness, to be righteous Himself and make righteous anyone who believes in Jesus. (Beck)
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his (Abraham's) sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
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35
According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?
by Vanderhoven7 ini know who won't be saved according to witnesses and that includes just about everyone alive at armageddon who is not a jehovah’s witness.
.
others who are permanently lost include adam and eve, those who died in the flood, people of sodom and gomorrah and apostates to their one true religion..
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Vanderhoven7
The Faithful Slave reminds me of the false brethren from James making salvation dependent on circumcision. (Galatians 2) Unless you believe and follow the law you cannot be saved. Unless you believe and follow the appointed Slave and his dictates you will be destroyed. Faith in Jesus doesn't matter without the Slave.
