Posts by Vanderhoven7

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, Jesus was talking about the people then living, not the WT manufactured 1914 generation.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

The New Testament emphasis on is on Christ because there is no salvation apart from Him. Many people believe in God, but reject the Jesus of scripture and go about relying on their own righteousness to win God's approval. It won't work.

There is nothing wrong with doing good things and obeying God's moral standards as revealed in scripture. That is what God’s Spirit helps Christians to want to do. But the works themselves are powerless to save or sanctify. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

It is not what you and I can do that will make us right with God, but what His Son did for us at Calvary. We can't make what He did more beautiful.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

Slim

Catch the context of Romans 10:13.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(Romans 10:13) Joel 2:32 is also quoted also by Peter, in his great Pentecostal sermon (Acts 2:21).

You can't apply Romans 10:13 to anyone who does not believe what leads up to it. That if you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Ro.10:9

Coming to Jesus, confessing him as Lord, believing in His death and resurrection, is the basis by which God saves and justifies sinners

Romans 10:13 does not work in a vacuum....or every religious Jew would be saved while rejecting Christ and His atoning work on our behalf. And the Apostles were wasting their time preaching Christ.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

Calling on Jehovah will not help save anyone. It did not save the Pharisees and it will not save anyone else who does not call on and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.the only name under heaven whereby we may be saved. Yes, Jehovah’s name is in Jesus' name. So when you call on Jesus name, you are calling on Jehovah.

33

Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?

by Vanderhoven7 in

atheists believe death is the end of personal existence.

but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?

in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.

Vanderhoven7

THE TRADITIONAL VIEW OF HELL ADVANCES THE FOLLOWING:

PREMISE 1. DURING THE INTERMEDIATE STATE the souls of the unrighteous deceased exist in a condition of unbearable torment in hell (Sheol/Hades).

PREMISE 2. AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT the souls of unregenerate human beings will be sustained in a condition of unbearable torment in hell (Gehenna/lake of fire) for all eternity.

TWO QUESTIONS:

I. What OT evidence might have convinced Christ's contemporaries (the Pharisees) of the Traditional view of hell? (From Gen. - Mal.)

OT evidence that supports Premise 1.

OT evidence that supports Premise 2.

.

II. What NT evidence should convince contemporary Christians of the Traditional view of hell? (From Mt. - Rev.)

NT evidence that supports Premise 1.

NT evidence that supports Premise 2.

33

Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?

by Vanderhoven7 in

atheists believe death is the end of personal existence.

but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?

in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.

Vanderhoven7

Why didn't God reveal the real punishment for sin before man sinned....

Oh wait, that's right; I guess He did when He said "Dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return."

33

Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?

by Vanderhoven7 in

atheists believe death is the end of personal existence.

but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?

in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.

Vanderhoven7

It is interesting that the only clear reference to eternal torment in the entire Bible is found in Revelation, in a passage that is highly figurative, and in a verse which does not mention a single human person. Essentially then, the argument for eternal conscious punishment of unregenerate human beings, is an argument from silence. If literal perpetual torment was the punishment for human sin, I would expect to find numerous explicit and unambiguous references to it, such as;

And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell. Day and night for all eternity, the wicked will call out for mercy, but there will be none to save. Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain. Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing to comfort them. Jehosaphat 3:16

And I would expect to find such clear and unmistakable teachings in the Old Testament, in and outside hell. I would also expect to find them in the plain teachings of the New Testament; in the 'matter of fact' gospel sayings of Jesus, in the early gospel proclamations documented in the book of Acts, and finally, in at least some of the Pauline Epistles. I would not expect to have to base my position totally on ambiguous and enigmatic imagery from New Testament parables and other highly symbolic literary forms that require intensive interpretive analysis.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

Well, knowing and even using the name Yaho is not critical to salvation. What is critical is knowing, i.e., having a personal faith-based relationship with both Father and Son through regeneration. You must be born again as a free gift of God or you cannot enter the kingdom of His Son. Those who come to the Son will have the Father revealed to them.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

@DJW

You can Google "Let God Be True" Watchtower pdf and you will get a few download sites.

Try

·
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1946_Let_God_Be_True.pdf

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Vanderhoven7

For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son: THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23

Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

Relative honor to God through an angel was reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT) 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?

Language of Scripture?:

"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

Scriptural Example?:

There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

Scriptural Instruction?:

There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?

Form and Content of worship?:

"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)

Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28

e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain

to receive power and wealth and Wisdom and strength and HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings; Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last, The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel, Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

All power in heaven and earth is Yours; You created all things; and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3 And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8 May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6

Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

k. Worship of Lamb in heaven by all creation

13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. NWT

WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?

Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?