Posts by Vanderhoven7

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

Why is it that every time the organization has changed the generation doctrine, it was always done to create more time?

PROGRESSIVE WATCHTOWER LIGHT ON “THIS GENERATION”

In 1968 the youngest of the 1914 generation were 15 years old.

"Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the 'last days' began. ... Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today." (Awake! Oct 8, 1968 p13)

In 1978 the youngest of the 1914 generation were clearly not babies

"Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the "generation" logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ's followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus' composite "sign."" (Watchtower Oct 1, 1978 p31)

In 1980 the youngest of the 1914 generation were revised to 10 years olds.

"As indicated by an article on page 56 of U.S. News & World Report of January 14, 1980, "If you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a person's memory," then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a "recollection of World War I."" (Watchtower Oct 15, 1980 p31)

In 1984 the youngest of the 1914 generation were reduced to babies.

"If Jesus used "generation" in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80's or 90's, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive." (Watchtower May 15, 1984 p5)

In 1988 the youngest were babies that were born in 1914

"Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it." (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

In 1995 age no longer was a factor in determining the 1914 generation

“Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.” – Watchtower Nov 1, 1995, p.20.

Finally in 2010 the 1914 generation overlaps.

How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37. Watchtower 04/15, 2010 Article: Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@Fisherman,

May 1, 1999 Watchtower article continued:

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *

The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!

My Conclusion to the May 1, 1999 Watchtower article: If the overlapping generation is right (which it is not) then Armageddon will come during the overlapping lives of Watchtower opposers who turn their back on the divine purpose.

So my opposing grandad was alive in 1914 and I knew him quite well. Now I am 75 and oppose the organization as well. When I reach 105 it will be 2052. Will I be safe to decide then that the overlapping generation must be wrong? If not at least give me a date.

38

Did you ever meet someone born in the 1800’s?

by Fisherman in

i met freddie franz who was born in the 1880’s and many others from the 1880’s.

but as a very small child i remember someone very old aged 106 and that person was born around 1856 which means that he was around people from the 1700’s..

Vanderhoven7

Yes, my great grandfather, Francis Vanderhoven.

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@Fisherman

"This generation" on the lips of Jesus invariably refers to the faithless generation of his day.

The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12) which contains some elements of sound interpretation.

In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history...

Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@ DJW

Vanderhoven7, are you a preterist? Do you believe Jesus made his second coming in 70 CE and that he thus will not come in the future? Do you believe a rapture of anointed Christians took place in 70 CE?

Nope. I am a partial preterist. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 deal with 2 separate events

a.The destruction of Jerusalem (Mt.24:`1-35)

b.The second coming or parousia of Christ (Mt 24:36-51)

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@Fisherman

".... since no sign would given to that evil generation, this generation at the olivette refers to his disciples who were given the sign: “

The composite sign so called were simply events that would preceed the real sign of Jerusalem's impending destruction. The real sign of Jerusalem's end was the Abomination of desolation which referred to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. It was the sign to flee the city and surrounding areas to the mountains. Those who tarried either lost their lives or were deported to surrounding nations.

There were no signs given believers to preceed the Parousia. "At a time ye think not, the Son of Man cometh." The timing of Christ's return is still unknown and that is why we are to be ready, waiting and watching at all times.

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@Fisherman

There is not one scripture to support 1914 or overlapping anointed.

It seems that scriptural usage means nothing to you. Nowhere is generation overlap presented or explained by the gospel writers. In all 4 gospels, "this generation" refers consistently to Christ's own evil generation.

Do you think people who don't believe in 1914 can be saved?

If, they cannot be saved, when did it first become necessary for salvation/justification to believe in 1914 as the start of the invisible presence?

Repentance and faith in Christ and His work are required for salvation, but I don't see believing in dates or in men as a requirement.

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@ Fisherman

Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?

The Greek word “genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, “this generation” (houtos genea), in context, clearly cover the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's unbelieving contemporaries”


Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)


Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ).


Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation ." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)


Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)


Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows " the persons then living contemporary with Christ are being referred to:

29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

On the basis of all prior usage in Matthew's gospel, and in all four gospels, what generation (houtos genea) was Jesus referring to Matthew 24:34?

162

A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

by Fisherman in

obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

Vanderhoven7

@ Fisherman

Obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

Perhaps there is some hope for you.

The great tribulation will “shortly” hit any day now just as wt has been saying all along

The WTS has been saying this for 130 years... often encouraging people not to have children or go to college.

and since it will happen before the new generation of “anointed” passes away, this would prove
that the latest generation definition of inter-lapping anointed is right on the money.

Every time Jesus spoke of "this generation", he was referring to the wicked and unbelieving, never the anointed.

No other definition of generation is possible to fulfill the prophecy: “This generation will by no means pass away..” —Which according to wt is based on passing away with relation to the year 1914.

1914 was and still is bogus and absolutely spurious to scripture. It has nothing to do with faith in Christ or God's approval...and yet the WTS will refuse Christian baptism to anyone who does not believe in the 1914 invisible presence doctrine.

Nowhere in the gospels is it even hinted at that a generation overlaps. The WT must make up this concept to fit their 1914 narrative.

The question is... how "generation" and specifically, "this generation" is used in the New Testament?

35

the sounding of the trumpet

by enoughisenough in

i will risk showing my ignorance but i had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight.

jw teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven.

when lazarus had died martha said she knew he would rise on the last day.

Vanderhoven7

Jesus is coming for his saints I Thes. 4

Later Jesus will come with His saints. Jude 14-15

The dead will be raised and the judgment of the nations begins.

And my take is that many of the inventions of man and his creative works including artistic creations will be preserved and used. Nothing beautiful will be lost. Wishful thinking... perhaps.