Posts by Vanderhoven7

77

A question about the contemporary generation teaching following a conversation with a JW apologist

by Giles Gray in

i would like to ask the ex-jws on this site to put their ‘apologists hat’ back on for a moment, so that i can go through the overlapping generation teaching in an attempt to make sense of it.

i apologise if these points have already been addressed on this site.a quick background for the reason for my request… having never confronted a jw apologist on the topic, i recently engaged with a jw regarding the official understanding of a ‘generation’ and unfortunately he didn’t have an answer to the points i was making.

i was left a little confused as to what the official jw response would/should be.so i was hoping that my thoughts below might be considered from an apologist’s perspective.the point in question relates to this section of the watchtower article below from 2008, as well as the jw.org video explanation of the overlapping generation:---:w08 2/15[box on page 25] can we calculate the length of “this generation”?the word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

Vanderhoven7

Fisherman

Try

https://youtu.be/9a0YwF1blwA

77

A question about the contemporary generation teaching following a conversation with a JW apologist

by Giles Gray in

i would like to ask the ex-jws on this site to put their ‘apologists hat’ back on for a moment, so that i can go through the overlapping generation teaching in an attempt to make sense of it.

i apologise if these points have already been addressed on this site.a quick background for the reason for my request… having never confronted a jw apologist on the topic, i recently engaged with a jw regarding the official understanding of a ‘generation’ and unfortunately he didn’t have an answer to the points i was making.

i was left a little confused as to what the official jw response would/should be.so i was hoping that my thoughts below might be considered from an apologist’s perspective.the point in question relates to this section of the watchtower article below from 2008, as well as the jw.org video explanation of the overlapping generation:---:w08 2/15[box on page 25] can we calculate the length of “this generation”?the word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

Vanderhoven7

1914 speculation only makes sense to the indoctrinated.

JW Insider has this to say...

"Here are several points related to 1914 that appear problematic from a Scriptural point of view:

All evidence shows the 1914 date is wrong when trying to base it on the destruction of Jerusalem. (Daniel 1:1; 2 Chron 36:1-22; Jer 25:8-12; Zech 1:12, 7:4; Ezra 3:10-13)
Paul said that Jesus sat at God's right hand in the first century and that he already began ruling as king at that time. (1 Cor 15:25)
Jesus said not to be fooled by the idea that wars and rumors of wars would be the start of a "sign" (Matt 24:4,5)
Jesus said that the "parousia" would be as visible as lightning (Matt 24:27). He spoke against people who might say he had returned but was currently not visible. (Matt 24:23-26)
Jesus said that his "parousia" would come as a surprise to the faithful, not that they would discern the time of the parousia decades in advance. (Matt 24:36-42)
Jesus said that the kingdom would not be indicated by "signs" (Luke 17:20, almost any translation except NWT in this case)
The "synteleia" (end of all things together) refers to a concluding event, not an extended period of time (Matt 28:20)
Jesus was already called ruler, King and even "King of Kings" in the first century. (1 Tim 6:15, Heb 7:2,17; Rev 1:5; 17:14)
Wicked, beastly King Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and humiliation does not represent Jesus as the "lowliest one of mankind." (Heb 1:5,6; 2:10,11; Daniel 4:23-25; cf. Heb 2:7; 1 Pet 3:17,18)
The demise of a Gentile kingdom cannot rightly represent the time of the rise of the Gentile kingdoms (Daniel 4:26,27)
The Gentile kings did not meet their demise in 1914. (Rev 2:25,26)
The time assigned to the Gentile Times that Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:24 is already given as 3.5 times, not 7 times (Revelation 11:2,3)
The Devil was already brought down from "heaven" in the first century. (1 John 2:14,15; 1 Pet 5:8; Luke 10:18; Heb 2:14)
The Bible says that the "last days" began in the first century. (Acts 2:14-20; 2 Tim 3:1-17; 1 Peter 3:3-5; Heb 1:2, almost any translation except NWT in this case.)

https://youtu.be/ITnZMCWnwZk

77

A question about the contemporary generation teaching following a conversation with a JW apologist

by Giles Gray in

i would like to ask the ex-jws on this site to put their ‘apologists hat’ back on for a moment, so that i can go through the overlapping generation teaching in an attempt to make sense of it.

i apologise if these points have already been addressed on this site.a quick background for the reason for my request… having never confronted a jw apologist on the topic, i recently engaged with a jw regarding the official understanding of a ‘generation’ and unfortunately he didn’t have an answer to the points i was making.

i was left a little confused as to what the official jw response would/should be.so i was hoping that my thoughts below might be considered from an apologist’s perspective.the point in question relates to this section of the watchtower article below from 2008, as well as the jw.org video explanation of the overlapping generation:---:w08 2/15[box on page 25] can we calculate the length of “this generation”?the word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

Vanderhoven7

Fisherman

1914 is only written in the minds of Jehovah's Witnesses as was 1874. Jesus second presence did not occur in 1874 and Armageddon did not occur in 1914, or 1918 or 1925, or 1975 or before the end of the 20th century.

6

Why Did the Apostles Preach the Ministry of Reconciliation Instead of Mt. 24: 14 ...Like JW's Do?

by Sea Breeze in

and all things are of god, who hath reconciled us to himself by jesus christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 to wit, that god was in christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

- 2 cor.

5: 18. then fourteen years after i went up again to jerusalem with barnabas, and took titus with me also.

Vanderhoven7

The gospel proclaimed by the WTS is not even close to Paul's gospel. One JW (Dan) wrote that he was saved after the challenge. I wrote back the following:

Dan, I'll tell you what you have and that is the empty promise of 8 men in New York that you MIGHT survive Armageddon if you stay in close association with them and believe everything they teach and obey everything they say. You might, maybe…so keep working hard for the reward of a chance to earn your way to the new earth.

But if you die before the tribulation, these men guarantee you a resurrection and a chance to continue working for 1000 years to acquire eternal life.

This is a man-made heretical gospel

And you believe these men and put your faith in them.

26

ARMAGEDDON

by Lost in the fog in

can i ask please especially for all who are pomo?.

we've taken a decision similar to revelation 18:4 to get out of the watchtower and not share in its sins.. how many of you still believe that god will one day terminate the world's many systems by means of an armageddon?.

Vanderhoven7

Nope

77

A question about the contemporary generation teaching following a conversation with a JW apologist

by Giles Gray in

i would like to ask the ex-jws on this site to put their ‘apologists hat’ back on for a moment, so that i can go through the overlapping generation teaching in an attempt to make sense of it.

i apologise if these points have already been addressed on this site.a quick background for the reason for my request… having never confronted a jw apologist on the topic, i recently engaged with a jw regarding the official understanding of a ‘generation’ and unfortunately he didn’t have an answer to the points i was making.

i was left a little confused as to what the official jw response would/should be.so i was hoping that my thoughts below might be considered from an apologist’s perspective.the point in question relates to this section of the watchtower article below from 2008, as well as the jw.org video explanation of the overlapping generation:---:w08 2/15[box on page 25] can we calculate the length of “this generation”?the word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

Vanderhoven7

Julie writes

Here are just some of their teachings about 1914 over the years using their own literature.

Watchtower was dogmatic as to exactly what was going to occur in 1914. Expectations for 1914 were forcefully presented as fact, as shown in the following quotes.

"the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest" Thy Kingdom Come (1911 ed.) p.228
"the Day of Vengeance ... will end in October, 1914" The Day of Vengeance p.547
"the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination" The Time Is at Hand (1889 ed.) page 77 - page 78
"we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun" The Time Is At Hand (1889 ed.) p.101
"we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D.1914." Studies in the Scriptures - The Time is at Hand (1889) 1911 ed. p.99
"October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon" Watch Tower 1911 Jun 15 p.190 (reprints p.4842)
"Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy." Thy Kingdom Come (1891 ed.) p.153
1914 is the basis for their interpretation of the majority of other Bible prophecies. Most importantly, this was the time during which Jesus is said to have come to inspect and cleanse the Watchtower Society, resulting in Jesus choosing it in 1919 to be the only organization he works though in our time, and the only means of salvation.
The early followers were as convinced they knew what was going to happen in 1914 as current followers are convinced the Great Tribulation and Armageddon will come at any moment, resulting in the destruction of all worldly people. This is because the same manipulative terminology used prior to 1914 is still used in Watchtower publications to this day.
1914 is the pivotal date for the existence of Jehovah's Witnesses, currently explained as the date:
the Gentile times ended
Jesus started ruling in heaven
the Last Days began
The current understanding is significantly different to the original teachings. Prior to 1914, the Watchtower believed:
The Last Days began 1799
Jesus Parousia started 1874
Jesus started ruling in heaven in 1878
The Gentile Times would end in 1914, resulting in the:

end of Armageddon
fall of false religion
end of all earthly governments
heavenly and earthly resurrections
paradise on earth

The 1914 doctrine has changed by necessity, and continued to change in the twenty first century, as it has been falsified by the progression of history. It has progressed from:

The last days started in 1799, ending in 1914.
The last days started in 1914, ending within a single lifetime/generation of those born prior to 1914.
The last days started in 1914, with an unspecified ending, after a period of an "overlapping generation."
According to the JW leaders, we’re all just one big generation overlapping to keep their 1914 teaching relevant.
Yes, the JWs bought this false teaching just like they do with all of the false teachings.

----------

Julie could have added the purpose for which the Awake magazine was printed until October 1995. And that is that God has promised to bring about a secure world order before those who saw the events of 1914 passed away.

26

More money and meeting with 3 elders

by Foolednomore in

jw
friends

so, we had this meeting with 3 elders ( larry, moe and curly) my uncle who is the lawyer sat in the room and stayed quiet, and fact for 40 minutes we let them talk.

we would just sit there.

they went into along winded monolog about how the world is in bad shape and getting worst.

Vanderhoven7

Seems to me that your uncle listened carefully and responded to the elders message appropriately. The three elders probably were reluctant to bring up the real reason for their visit because of the presence of a lawyer. And they got the tongue lashing they needed in the end as well. Good job Uncle!

94

Will Ukraine win?

by Fisherman in

i was under the impression that it was going to be a short war, that russia’s military would indeed subdue ukraine’s forces quickly but that is not happening.

seems that russia’s military power is much less than it’s reputed to be.

no guess how it will all end..

Vanderhoven7

JWs are the only ones who would visualize WW3 positively.

27

Yet another mo' money video!

by nowwhat? in

(in the what's new section) apparently jehovah is still failing to provide the necessary funds so have to beg and petition men for support even though we said we'd never do that!.

new angle, if you want to make friends with jehovah and jesus we need more of your unrighteous riches .

apparently jehovah is in the protection racket now.

Vanderhoven7

@ FNM

That's good news. I assume you have been given Power of Attorney and mandate and that you are in her will. I am sure the elders will say that they have discussed things with her and her desire is to give her money to the org. Has she been declared incompetent? Anyway, I believe that in all likelihood what her will says will stand. If you are going to meet with them as planned, it is smart that you have arranged for your lawyer to be there. If you tell them this in advance, they may cancel the meeting themselves.

94

Will Ukraine win?

by Fisherman in

i was under the impression that it was going to be a short war, that russia’s military would indeed subdue ukraine’s forces quickly but that is not happening.

seems that russia’s military power is much less than it’s reputed to be.

no guess how it will all end..

Vanderhoven7

No...at best Ukraine will be left in tatters so Putin can claim victory.