Posts by Vanderhoven7

37

114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment in

a poster wrote to me privately, and brought to my attention the following comment below i made a while back in regards to the 144,00 number of revelation.

i had casually conjectured that this number was likely symbolic in line with the book of revelation being mostly symbolic in kind.

he brought up this juicy source:.

Vanderhoven7

It seems that multitudes became Christians in the first century.

(Acts 2:41) 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added.

(Acts 2:47) 47 praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to add to them daily those being saved.

And Acts 4:4 says, “many of those who had listened to the speech believed, and the number of the men became about 5,000”.

(Acts 5:14) 14 More than that, believers in the Lord kept on being added, great numbers both of men and of women.

(Acts 6:7) 7 Consequently, the word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying very much in Jerusalem; and a large crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith.

Acts 9:42 This (healing) became known throughout all Jopʹpa, and many became believers in the Lord

(Acts 11:21) Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number became believers and turned to the Lord.

(Acts 11:24,26) 24 for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and faith. And a considerable crowd was added to the Lord. 26 So for a whole year they assembled with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians

Acts 13:48 When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah,* and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.

Acts 14:1 Now in I·coʹni·um they entered together into the synagogue of the Jews and spoke in such a manner that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks became believers.

Acts 18:8-10 And many of the Corinthians who heard began to believe and be baptized.9 Moreover, the Lord said to Paul in a vision by night: “Do not be afraid, but keep on speaking and do not keep silent, 10 for I am with you+ and no man will assault you to harm you; for I have many people in this city.”

David Chilton, in his excellent commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" page 206 says

“The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness."

There is biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical, that they really are the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that THE APOSTLE John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing on page 213 of:”Days of Vengeance:”

“For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns

to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then

sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"

- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same

pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the

number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things

- after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold

a Great Multitude (v.9).

There is one church indivisible; the Great crowd is not a piddly 8.5 million which we can all number; and the number of those sealed by the Spirit of God is a perfect number, representing a perfect innumerable body of believers. As promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

37

114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment in

a poster wrote to me privately, and brought to my attention the following comment below i made a while back in regards to the 144,00 number of revelation.

i had casually conjectured that this number was likely symbolic in line with the book of revelation being mostly symbolic in kind.

he brought up this juicy source:.

Vanderhoven7

Old Testament Saints also have the same heavenly hope:

Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Psalm 73:24-25 You guide me with Your counsel, and afterward You will take me into glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And earth has nothing I desire besides You.

Matthew 8:10-11 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 11: 9-10, 13-16 9 By faith he (Abraham) sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.... 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

37

114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment in

a poster wrote to me privately, and brought to my attention the following comment below i made a while back in regards to the 144,00 number of revelation.

i had casually conjectured that this number was likely symbolic in line with the book of revelation being mostly symbolic in kind.

he brought up this juicy source:.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Sea Breeze

Pre-millennial to the core.

Those who have never been drawn to Jesus will be.

37

114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment in

a poster wrote to me privately, and brought to my attention the following comment below i made a while back in regards to the 144,00 number of revelation.

i had casually conjectured that this number was likely symbolic in line with the book of revelation being mostly symbolic in kind.

he brought up this juicy source:.

Vanderhoven7

The WTS says there were less than 144,000 Christians that existed prior to 1914 ignoring the fact that millions were martyred for the name of Christ during the centuries. All but 100,000 or so of these were actually Christians. Remember that only anointed Christians that existed prior to 1914.

Let's look at WTS logic regarding these martyrs.

The Watchtower September 1, 1951, in a wonderful article entitled “Hated For His Name”(pp518,519) describes the persecution and martyrdom of steadfast Christians in the first 3 centuries AD.

“By the year (A.D.) 64 Christianity was prominent throughout much of the Roman Empire, including the capital city Rome itself. Their individual characteristics, form of worship and steadfast refusal to compromise thereon had made the Christians sure targets of hostility and ridicule. That year, the tenth in the reign of Emperor Nero, Rome was swept by a conflagration so great it is yet theobject of poetry and legend....

Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and bumings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment orunder enforced public works”.

WT 1952 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers

According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.

The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.

Rather insulting to those who made the ultimate sacrifice for staying true to their Christian beliefs I would say.

.

Watchtower July 1, 1972. Questions From Readers

Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.

"There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.” (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive “the crown of life.”—Rev. 2:10.

Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness.

37

114,000, Literal, or Symbolic?

by Wonderment in

a poster wrote to me privately, and brought to my attention the following comment below i made a while back in regards to the 144,00 number of revelation.

i had casually conjectured that this number was likely symbolic in line with the book of revelation being mostly symbolic in kind.

he brought up this juicy source:.

Vanderhoven7

Jehovah's Witnesses preach that the 144,000 of Rev 7:4 is to be taken literally. If that number is literal, why isn't Revelation 7: 5-8 to be taken literally Jehovah's Witnesses?

Witnesses say the tribes are figurative but the total number of the figurative tribes is literal. They are not being consistent.

Why couldn't both the tribes and their numbers be figurative?

Doesn't exactly 12,000 from 12 symbolic tribes seem unlikely? What is each tribe a symbol of? Why couldn’t the total number of the tribes 144,000 be a symbol as well? Doesn’t this "suspiciously tidy sort of number seem much more likely to be a symbol than a statistic"?

Witnesses argue that the 144,000 must be literal because it is given in contrast to the innumerable number of "Great Multitude" members.

But they don’t take into account that this apparent contrast could be one of perspective (i.e. divine/human) rather than numerical literalness?

LOOKING AT THE NUMBER A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY:

How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?

David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says:

The tidy number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)

21

Ministry in John 3:16

by JW Answers in

a lot of false teaching darkens our doors today, especially with watchtower teachings, calvinism and lordship salvation.. latest video below explores the verse john 3:16 and shows forth the truths which christ preached to nicodemus.

the jws also spread fear amongst their followers stating that if the leave the org, then jehovah will strike them down at armageddon.

this video covers this same fear.. feel free to watch below..

Vanderhoven7

Hi Tonus,

" I have no issue with the idea that God, as creator of the universe and giver of life, has the authority to take it back as He pleases. I take no account of any bugs I might step on when I am walking outside..."

Thank you for sharing so eloquently your sentiments about God based on the flood account. I understand to some degree where you are coming from but I can't agree with your analogous assumption that God is uncaring.

God indeed took account of what He was about to do to mankind. He was grieved by the level of depravity mankind had sunk to and the judgment that this depravity called for. Noah reminds me of the prophets unsuccessfully calling Israel to repentance. I am also reminded of Christ weeping over Jerusalem because He knew what their rejection of Him meant.

And I disagree that God is unpredictable. God is predictably bent on destroying sin from the universe....(the cross is evidence of this) and saving and transforming an innumerable multitude of sinners into saints...as John 3:16 confirms.

21

Ministry in John 3:16

by JW Answers in

a lot of false teaching darkens our doors today, especially with watchtower teachings, calvinism and lordship salvation.. latest video below explores the verse john 3:16 and shows forth the truths which christ preached to nicodemus.

the jws also spread fear amongst their followers stating that if the leave the org, then jehovah will strike them down at armageddon.

this video covers this same fear.. feel free to watch below..

Vanderhoven7

Hi Tonus,

"I think it's an appropriate punishment for someone who has displayed a depraved indifference towards human life."

I agree. Not only is it a right but also a responsibility according to The instructions given Noah after the flood. And if man in certain circumstances has the right to take life, i believe God has that same right to take life in judgment of those who are "depraved and are indifferent towards human life"...as was obviously the case in Noah’s day according to Genesis 6

¶And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.... 11¶The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth...13¶And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

It seems that God waits for the iniquity of man to come to the full before destruction is called for.

I suspect this post will not be received well...but I question whether those who would judge God negatively for His judgments would be here today to condemn Him had the flood not happened.

21

Ministry in John 3:16

by JW Answers in

a lot of false teaching darkens our doors today, especially with watchtower teachings, calvinism and lordship salvation.. latest video below explores the verse john 3:16 and shows forth the truths which christ preached to nicodemus.

the jws also spread fear amongst their followers stating that if the leave the org, then jehovah will strike them down at armageddon.

this video covers this same fear.. feel free to watch below..

Vanderhoven7

Hi Tonus,

Just for the record, I'm not supporting the bombing. I'm with Smiddy on that issue.

<<Was it beyond God's ability to rehabilitate that world?>>

As far as I can see, not without cancelling man's free will.

<<But what if my other choice was to convince my enemy to sit down and agree to peace without either of those two options?>>

Of course, that would be the best option....but what if it doesn't work?

BTW, do you believe that the death penalty is sometimes warranted?

21

Ministry in John 3:16

by JW Answers in

a lot of false teaching darkens our doors today, especially with watchtower teachings, calvinism and lordship salvation.. latest video below explores the verse john 3:16 and shows forth the truths which christ preached to nicodemus.

the jws also spread fear amongst their followers stating that if the leave the org, then jehovah will strike them down at armageddon.

this video covers this same fear.. feel free to watch below..

Vanderhoven7

Hi Smiddy,

I think you know why I asked the question.

I see you don't embrace the adage, "All is fair in love and war".Good for you. How about, "The end justifies the means"?

According to Gallop, the majority of Americans back then and still do today, approve of the bombings that resulted in the death of approximately 150,000 Japanese.

Would you say that the majority of Americans are heartless?

If you could see the future with perfect clarity, and forsaw the complete destruction of millions of American lives if these bombs had not been dropped, would you change your mind and go along with the majority?

21

Ministry in John 3:16

by JW Answers in

a lot of false teaching darkens our doors today, especially with watchtower teachings, calvinism and lordship salvation.. latest video below explores the verse john 3:16 and shows forth the truths which christ preached to nicodemus.

the jws also spread fear amongst their followers stating that if the leave the org, then jehovah will strike them down at armageddon.

this video covers this same fear.. feel free to watch below..

Vanderhoven7

Hi Smiddy,

Do you think that the American government in 1945 was justified in ordering the dropping of atomic bombs in Japan?