Posts by Vanderhoven7

6

Court Cases Costs?

by LostintheFog1999 in

watch tower is in court all the time.

it wins some.

it loses others.. we know it costs £££££ to go to court, pay barristers, expert witnesses, etc.. with wtc going to court for so many diverse reasons these days, from challenging laws to defending wt practices and paying out to csa victims, how much do you think wtc is spending annually on court cases?.

Vanderhoven7

But they still need to fleece the flock for new building projects.

https://youtu.be/Ps340OyR_Gk

97

It is now 2003.... Where is Armageddon?

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

i find it extremely amusing how each year is passing without armageddon.

"for the year 2000, i visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise!

but i don't think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day.. we are living in the last days of the system of things.

Vanderhoven7

The GT leading to Armageddon is unrepeatable history. The religion is built on empty threats.

136

Colossian 1:16 - "all OTHER things"

by aqwsed12345 in

due to their apparent theological bias, the watchtower shamelessly inserts the word "other" in order to "make room" for their own idea that jesus is also a created being.

it is clear that jehovah's witnesses try to avoid having to admit that christ created everything because "the one who constructed all things is god" (hebrews 3:4).

instead, the society teaches that "christ was the only one created by god," and that then he "created everything else with jehovah.

Vanderhoven7

For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son:THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23

Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

Relative honor to God through an angel was reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT) 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?

.

Language of Scripture?

"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

Scriptural Example?

There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

Scriptural Instruction?

There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?

Form and Content?

"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)

Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28

e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and Wisdom and strength and HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings;

Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last,

The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel,

Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

All power in heaven and earth is Yours;

You created all things; and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3

And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8

May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6

Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped. NWT

WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?

Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Vanderhoven7

Good luck Jorden.

20

When A WT/JW Elder Can't Handle The Truth...Priceless!😂

by JW GoneBad in

give a listen to this 4 minute video where a jw elder stammers, stutters & fumbles then hangs-up!.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=edfphabzxhw.

Vanderhoven7

Thought this was interesting.

Is the ex-JW community a cult by their own definition

by Charlie Ryde

Let us use the same BITE model for determining if something is a cult to both being a JW and being ex-JW. Mind you this is a short summary.

B- Behavioral Control

JW- complete control of acceptable behaviors punishable by loss of privilege or shunning.

ex-JW- not a group just a loose collective of traumatized individuals trying to move on and warn others. No rules of membership or punishments.

I - Intellectual Control

JW- prohibits or restricts reading materials. Discourages higher education.

ex-JW- still not an actual group but…Most ex-JWs encourage education and reading banned books.

T- Thought Control

JW- have a derogatory name for all nonmembers “worldly people”. Call their own teachings “The Truth”. Require complete adherence to the Truth without question to maintain membership.

ex-JW- no organized doctrine to control. Just people sad their families are destroyed.

E- Emotional Control

JW- require an appearance of joy to outsiders. Mental illness considered a defect due to not exercising accurate understanding of “The Truth”. Love Bombing when all is well, complete disassociation when a violation occurs.

ex-JW- focus on helping each other heal in any way possible and with understanding.

For a more detailed explanation of how JWs are a cults see the BITE model link below. .

The BITE Model and Jehovah's Witnesses

This blog applies the BITE model to the religious practices and doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses. A former member does a detailed assessment.

https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-model-and-jehovahs-witnesses/

And here is the link for the BITE model proving exJWs are a cult as well:

http://www.bitemodelexjwsarentevenagroup.com

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

The Pharisees, (like the organization) promised Abrahamic paradise to those who accepted God's judgment for their sins and those of their fathers. We cannot in good conscience help you.... Lazarus (God is your help) they would say to the poor without lifting a finger to help. In his story, Jesus placed "God is your help" in Abraham's Bosom just where the Pharisees said they would end up at death if they accepted their poverty and woes. But the rich man (i.e. the Pharisees) end up in the very hell they used to justify their refusal to help.

It's a parody, a masterful satire to undermine Pharisaic authority.

19

First post here. Inactive since January, making it permanent. Here is my intro

by madisoncembre in

new poster to this site.

i've started blogging and would like to share my experiences with you.

bear with me as i am completely new to this.

Vanderhoven7

No way. You didn't move out so he could move in.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

AQ

Yes, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire where both will be destroyed eternally. No more death and no more hell. Wonderful - No?

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

From my perspective both "The Dishonest Steward" and :The Rich Man and Lazarus" accounts are satirical. They wete designed to undermine Pharisaic authority in the eyes of the common people in the audience.

In order to establish that the literary form of both narratives are satires, or more particularly, parodies, there must be clear evidence that:

a. A common or "well known story line is being imitated".

b. irony is employed; that the story’s outcome is changed such that there is clear “incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the expected result”

c. the unexpected results "highlight human stupidity" or corruption.

d. "a comic end is served", the purpose of which is to cause listeners "to detach sympathies from certain people (groups), to judge their actions and to see the absurdity in their behavior…

As it happens, The Dishonest Steward (Pharisees) get divine congratulations and the rich man (Pharisees) end up in their own version of hell in the afterlife.

It is clear why the Pharisees would not appreciate these accounts.

Check out my YT video

https://youtu.be/2Y-p9Ol_Shs

7

What do the Org. And the Catholic Church have in Common?

by Vanderhoven7 in

"the governing body of jehovah’s witnesses are like the pope is to the catholic church.

they too claim to be god’s mouthpiece or the voice of jesus.

they also demand unquestioning obedience for their members salvation.

Vanderhoven7

"The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses are like the Pope is to the Catholic Church. They too claim to be God’s mouthpiece or the voice of Jesus. They also demand unquestioning obedience for their members salvation. They both claim to be the one true religion or church. While the Pope wears certain garb the governing body leaders wear expensive suits with expensive jewelry/pinky rings. Gb have no charity for the poor and needy but live in a commune where all their needs are met. They even get personal donations from their members although they supposedly take a vow of poverty. They live like the Pope in many ways." Nadia Viotto

Here are some similarities between the two. Link below.

Centralized World-wide church government from which all official doctrine comes. The Pope and the Governing body.
A city where world headquarters permanently resides: Rome, Italy and Brooklyn, NY, USA (Now Tuxedo NY)
Authority of this "world organization" is not to be questioned.
Both consider God to be the head of the world organization.
Both organizations are "spirit directed" by God.
A simple definition of both is as follows: "Definition of a Catholic/Jw: 'Someone who accepts Vatican/Watchtower organization as God's visible spirit-directed theocratic organization upon the earth.
Both have official yearly meetings of the world leaders.
The official doctrines that have changed dramatically over time.
Both claim "new light" or progressive revelation to explain doctrinal changes.
Both teach the organization is supreme over the Bible rather than the Bible being supreme over the organization.
The average members are told by the organization that they cannot understand the Bible without the help of the official organization.
Both discourage independent thinking from the world organization.
Both continue to blindly follow the organization in spite of major doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops.
Both "explain away" doctrinal changes, reversals and flip-flops by claiming "new light".
Both view every other church as heretical and false.
No salvation outside of their organization.
The word of the organization is unquestionably final.
Interpreting the Bible is the sole right of the organization.
Both make claims that because of their size, growth, activity, they must have the truth.
Both have authoritative writings in addition to the Bible. Creeds, catechisms and the watchtower.
Both teach that you cannot understand the Bible unless you compare the Bible with their official "authoritative writings" Creeds and Watchtower.
Both have an official clergy system with special privileges and rights the common member does not have. Priests, elders, overseers and the Governing body.
Both have system of monasteries where "most holy and dedicated" selflessly pledge to do the "work for God" without any material rewards. No children are allowed in both. Catholic = monasteries; JW = Bethel
Both cover up sexual molestation between men and children. We know that pedophilia can happen anywhere, schools, sports teams and churches. Covering up such acts is wrong. The CBC program, "The Fifth Estate" aired a TV program on Sept 12, 2003 documenting how sexual abuse is routinely covered up in the Kingdom Hall’s of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Catholic Church has a similar history of covering up sexual abuse cases. Various legal loop holes and religious bullying to not tell people of pedophilia leads people to spend decades in fear of telling others of being abused.
“Jehovah” is the proper name of God (at least according to 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia. Consider the fact the terms was translated in Spanish by a Catholic monk! It is of note however modern Catholic Bibles like the Jerusalem Bible use the now preferred way “Yahweh.”
Both are active about their faith in the community. Jehovah’s Witnesses go door-to-door, Catholics have various organizations like “Catholic youth week,” the pope visits other countries on a regular basis to “spread the Catholic faith.” It is to be noted members on the Governing Body also do this! Their ways of preaching are remarkably different, but both have a strong presence in the community.
Too much emphasis is put on works and teach the death for Christ insufficient.
Have a lot of wealth and power over their rank and file.
They shun people who leave their faith. However Jw’s go as far as to kick their own children out of their homes into the street and won’t answer a phone call from their child.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have had shares in a navy company, Rand Cam. That makes weapons of defense! So maybe they aren’t out killing people on the fields, but they own shares in a company that does! They have blood on their hands. As well as their unbiblical blood doctrine that has had numerous flip flops. They dictate the life and death of their members making themselves G.O.D (guardians of doctrine)
Major church hierarchy.
Pharisee-like with unbiblical rules.
Both hand out religious literature in the street.
Both have had significant decreases in membership in Western countries.
Conscience involving a lot of activities in faith. Both churches have a lot of rules, but never do in practice.
Both organizations have big publishing companies.
Both are militant and indoctrinating about them being the “first church” and to disobey the organization is to disobey God!
The JW's use to be a part of the UN as an NGO member before they were caught out.
Both avoid using the Biblical term "Christian," and rather be known by their respective names: Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

LINK BETWEEN JW's and CATHOLICS –– Many Jehovah's Witnesses are ex-Catholics!

Similarities between Catholics and JW's