Posts by Vanderhoven7

36

My defense speech before the judicial committee

dear brothers!.

we have gathered here because, according to your claims, i have apostatized, and as elders, it is your duty to maintain the purity of the flock.

it seems now that someone has contaminated it, apparently.

Vanderhoven7

It seems that Disfellowshipped-Brother has left the building. He may have initially thought this was a WTS recognized site.

8

Justification

by Sea Breeze in

the..."other sheep...are...not even justified".

- wt 1938 pg.

jw's are internationally famous for rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" (mt.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, ask them first if they have peace with God?

They will answer yes, they have the peace of God.

That's not what I'm asking...then turn to Roman's 5:1 (I.e. peace with God because of justification)

Then verse 9

36

My defense speech before the judicial committee

by Disfellowshipped-Brother in

dear brothers!.

we have gathered here because, according to your claims, i have apostatized, and as elders, it is your duty to maintain the purity of the flock.

it seems now that someone has contaminated it, apparently.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Disfellowshipped-brother

Welcome to the forum!

"Romans 8:28"

Perhaps your being disfellowshipped is a part of the fulfillment of Romans 8:28 in your case. If you love Jehovah and His Son Jesus then you have eternal life with or without the approval of men in your congregation who are not led by the Spirit of Christ. John 17:3

Please hang around this forum for a while and get a better picture of what free exchange is all about.

63

How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....

"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.

when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.

Vanderhoven7

63

How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....

"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.

when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.

Vanderhoven7

Excellent additions JWGB!

63

How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....

"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.

when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.

Vanderhoven7

There is no such thing as the right or one true religion. No doubt some churches have more truth than others, but JWs are missing the boat totally.

Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ which Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden to have. They cannot address their Michael the archangel to say, "Thank you for saving me and forgiving all of my sins!" first of all because they are not saved (which they admit) and secondly because their Jesus is not entitled to direct communication.

63

How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....

"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.

when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.

Vanderhoven7

Some good ones to add to the list.

"When your own literature becomes your worst enemy"

63

How Do You Know You Are In The Wrong Religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.. you know you are in the wrong religion:1. when the all important question is not: "do you believe in the lord jesus christ?"....but....

"do you believe in the "faithful and discreet slave" appointed in brooklyn in 1919?"2.

when you will be refused baptism if: a. you don't believe jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bc (whereas all non-jw scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 bc.)b.

Vanderhoven7

I believe this list which many of us worked on needs to see the light of day again...and added to if possible.

You know you are in the wrong religion:

1. when the all important question is not: "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?"....but...."Do you believe in the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" appointed in Brooklyn in 1919?"

2. when you will be refused baptism if:

a. you don't believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC (whereas all non-JW scholars, all encyclopedias and all history books say this event took place in 587 BC.)

b. you, like Cornelius, are a member of the military.

c. you, like Daniel, Joseph and the Ethiopian eunuch hold political office.

d. you don't believe the apostles went door-to-door and that Christians are required to do the same.

e. you believe that the majority of Christians running around today are not part of the New Covenant, do not have a heavenly hope, and are not Spirit-begotten or born again.

f. you don't believe that finding and serving in the right organization (the one with headquarters formerly in Brooklyn, now in Columbia Heights ) is necessary to escape eternal destruction at Armageddon.

3. when window-washing, JC Penny suit-wearing elders insist that THEY carry out and handle cases of child abuse and NOT the trained authorities.

4. when your organization holds NGO status in the Wild Beast of Revelation for close to 10 years running.

5. when your leaders have a 100% failure rate interpreting biblical prophecy...except of course when it comes to invisible stuff.

6. when you have to surrender your conscience to men.

7. when independent thinking is labeled as sin.

8. when you are to encourage everyone else to question their religion, but are forbidden to question your own.

9. when you are told not to look into the past history, or failed predictions because that would not be " encouraging ".

10. when your religion enforces medical quackery such as forbidding vaccinations or organ transplants.

11. when you are forbidden to celebrate birthdays because thousands of years ago, someone died at a birthday party.

12. when you are constantly told to wait on Jehovah for answers to your scriptural questions and doubts.

13. when child victims have to jump through hoops to expose a pedophile

14. when you have shunned your own children for the last 25+ years.

15. when you just had to suppress the thought that you might be in the wrong religion.

16. when the youngest of the final generation are over 107 years old.

17. when you are denied life saving medical treatments.

18. when you are taught to distrust your own thoughts.

19. when you were told you didn't need college because you would not have time for a career in this system and now you a card carrying member of AARP.

20. when you can't figure out the current teachings on which 'fractions of fractions of fractions of blood' are acceptable to Jehovah.

21. when you find out that you and your wife made love in the wrong way.

22. when all your friends stop speaking to you because you visit web sites critical of the Watchtower

23. when you will be disfellowshipped (spiritually executed) if

a. you don't agree that rejecting the authority men in Warwick is worthy of excommunication and shunning ex-JW family members.

b. you verbalize disagreement with any doctrinal position or change handed down from the current governing body in New York.

c. you engage in any behavior that could be labeled as "brazen", and you refuse to "repent" when called before a kangaroo court.

d. you allow your child to have a blood transfusion to save his or her life.

24. when you casually say "i don't think the governing body is the true channel" the room gets quiet they all look at you pointing and screaming your cover is blown the alien controlled humans are chasing you the last remaining human who still has a human brain.

25. when you see the words "Jehovah" and "Witness" juxtaposed.

12

How does God communicate with Jehovah's Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

gilles gray writes:.

the short answer is, god communicates with jehovah’s witnesses very poorly indeed.. jehovah’s witnesses are the first to affirm that god doesn’t directly communicate with them at all.. however, this fact doesn’t stop them from making the baseless assertion that god communicates to them through reading the bible, through holy spirit and through their leaders (known as the governing body, or the faithful and discreet slave).. here is a claim made by one of the first leaders of the watchtower organisation:-.

communication through reading the bible.

Vanderhoven7

Gilles Gray writes:

The short answer is, God communicates with Jehovah’s Witnesses very poorly indeed.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are the first to affirm that God doesn’t directly communicate with them at all.

However, this fact doesn’t stop them from making the baseless assertion that God communicates to them through reading the bible, through holy spirit and through their leaders (known as the Governing Body, or the Faithful and Discreet Slave).

Here is a claim made by one of the first leaders of the Watchtower Organisation:-

Communication through reading the bible

Although this claim is an extremely common response made by nearly all JWs when confronted with this question, in fact when one stops to consider precisely what is meant, it doesn’t amount to much in the way of compelling evidence. The claim that God talks to the leaders of the Organisation through their reading of the bible is misleading and pointless, by anybody’s standard.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that by regularly studying the bible, the secret messages from God contained therein are gradually revealed. They assert that the bible translates itself, and over time their leaders have come to understand the underlying inspired words of God.

The problem with this claim is the fact that anyone can make the exact same assertion. For example, there is an alternative contrasting understanding on what the bible says with regards to the consumption of blood at Acts 15. This alternative understanding is backed up by other verses in the bible, which is as equally as compelling as the ‘no blood policy’ proclaimed by Jehovah’s Witnesses. The fact that there is an alternative contradictory understanding backed up by the bible, means that this alternative rendition must also be considered as the communication of God’s thoughts, if we are to be logically consistent.

The fact that there are two contradictory bible perspectives, which are both in harmony with other portions of the scriptures, means that the god of the bible is both tolerant and intolerant of the consumption of blood, at the same time. This makes no logical sense, and undermines the claim made by Jehovah’s Witnesses that God communicates His thoughts to people when they make a comprehensive study of the bible.

In addition, there are also the examples of believing JWs who were disfellowshipped for speaking out against certain teachings imposed by the Governing Body, and only a few years later, the Watchtower changed its teaching to the one for which the former member was ejected. This would suggest that God ‘communicated’ with the JW who was removed before He spoke to the leaders of the Organisation, and then allowed them to be removed from the congregation… for being correct.

The other problem for Jehovah’s Witnesses is the fact that throughout the history of the Watchtower Organisation, the leaders have positively asserted that their teachings are those found in the bible.

What undermines this position is the fact that many of their former ‘bible based’ teachings have been discarded, in many cases through necessity, after their claims proved to be untrue.

If many of their former teachings proved to be untrue, it stands to reason that God never ‘communicated’ those teachings to the Governing Body. If so, those former teachings had to be the thoughts of men, the presumptuous ideas of mistaken, misled individuals who spoke in the name of Jehovah without His say-so. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)

Having taught ideas that have later proved to be untrue, the dilemma for Jehovah’s Witnesses is to know how to distinguish an untrue bible based teaching made by their overzealous mistaken leaders, from a bible teaching that has been ‘communicated’ from Jehovah.

Both are claimed to be based on a bible verse.
Both examples are alleged to be harmonious with the rest of the scriptures.
Both claims originate from the thoughts/mouths of the dubious leaders of the Watchtower Organisation.

The fact is, there is no method to distinguish whether the current and future teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses are anymore credible than those they previously believed and have subsequently abandoned. This leaves JWs with no certain way of knowing whether or not Jehovah truly does communicate to them through an extensive study of the scriptures.

The holy spirit directs the Governing Body

In a similar vein, on examination, the claim that God directs the Organisation through the holy spirit, means nothing. The ‘holy spirit’ that Jehovah’s Witnesses describe is not in the least comparable to the ‘Holy Spirit’ mentioned in the bible. The Holy Spirit in the bible was a ‘hands-on’ supernatural force which Jesus and Jehovah used to personally direct, guide and physically empower their true followers.

The ‘holy spirit’ referred to by Jehovah’s Witnesses is merely a ‘mindset’ or ‘feeling’ someone attains when reading the scriptures. There is no direct influence from God or Jesus. This means that anyone who reads the bible can make the exact same claim as the JWs, including atheists. Anyone reading the bible can be said to be in ‘communication’ with God and Jesus via the holy spirit. The phrase means absolutely nothing.

Communication through the Governing Body

As for the claim that God speaks to Jehovah’s Witnesses through the Governing Body, one only has to make a quick search into the Watchtower’s failed eschatology to confirm that there is absolutely no good evidence to believe that God even remotely directs these individuals. Considering that the bible condemns Jehovah’s Witnesses for speaking out presumptuously in God’s name, having never received authority directly from Him to do so, one would conclude that the very opposite is true.

There is no justifiable reason to conclude that God communicates with Jehovah’s Witnesses at all. Aside from mere wishful thinking, the evidence just isn’t there.

12

Sonthetic human embryo—Imagine that!

by Fisherman in

i read a news article that scientists have made from stem cells a human embryo.

poor soul..

Vanderhoven7

Playing with human life is a dangerous endeavor.

GLWT means "Good Luck With That." The phrase "Good Luck With That" is typically used sarcastically, to indicate to someone that you think they have no hope of achieving what they are about to attempt. The literal meaning is, "You can try that, but there is no way you will succeed."