Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Slim,

  Do you have quotations from Watchtower literature that show this change in their teaching?
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government." (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

  w52 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers

  According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.

  The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such."

  Isn't this GB assumption insulting to those who made the ultimate sacrifice for staying true to their Christian beliefs? Of course the Faithful Slave knows they were not real Christians because they have a number theory that says the 144,000 is a literal number.
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Slim

  I think you are aware that many do not accept Starks numerical guesswork.

  On what bases do you believe the writer of Acts was not operating under inspiration?

  What to you determines whether someone is a real verses a mere professed Christian? Or does that distinction actually exist in your thinking?
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Exactly Tonus.

  And they know there were less than 150,000 real Christians from Pentecost till the start of the 20th century because of a number theory. And yet they say they don't judge anyone; they leave it all to Jehovah.
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @ Slim

  I see you do not trust the biblical record: 3000 @ Pentecost alone, followed by 5000 followed by multitude after multitude in Acts of the Holy Spirit.
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  other thread TD said:

  In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.

  "For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)

  It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.
• 
  39

  Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  text: matthew 24:45-47.

  45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

  46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Konagirl

  The Pharisees controlled the common people by their hellfire after death teaching...so why would Jesus create a parable using their teacing about Abraham's Bosom and hellfire doctrine? Wouldn't that just affirm the Pharisee's beliefs about what happens in the afterlife?

  Secondly, how do you think the Pharisees justified not lifting a finger to help the poor?
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  In a conversation I'm having

  Me: Do you think it is possible that over 200,000 of the millions who were martyred for the name of Jesus prior to the 2Oth century might have been faithful Christians as well? How would you know otherwise?

  Him: Jesus foretold the apostasy in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds. John as the last surviving apostle stated that the apostasy had already begun as of 96 CE while he was still living. By the council of Nicaea in 325 CE, the church was already neck deep in apostasy. So, while there may have been faithful ones scattered about, they did not come from the the Catholic or Orthodox apostates.

  So as I have noted, through no fault of their own, most people (as in 99.999% of them) had no access to scriptural truth. There were surely “faithful” Jews with the Torah and the OT, but they had officially rejected Jesus as the Messiah and continue to do so as of February 2024.

  Martin Luther and John Calvin had the opportunity to break free from the “antichrist” tenets of the Catholic church. Instead, they simply adopted a modified version of it while maintaining its most egregious apostate doctrines.

  The Anglican Church was nothing but a political tool in the hands of Henry VIII. No spiritual truth was going to flow from that unholy mess. The one positive that did eventually emerge, however, was the King James authorized version of 1611 that put truth into the vernacular of the “ploughman” as Tyndale so aptly put it.

  
  

  Me: (So as I have noted, through no fault of their own, most people (as in 99.999% of them) had no access to scriptural truth.))

  And your source for this stat is?

  It's amazing that you know what was missing in the minds of millions of martyrs for the name of Christ that determined they were not true Christians.

  So what exactly was the saving scriptural truth that was missing from the minds and hearts of these martyrs that prevented them from knowing and loving the Father and the Son?

  Since you can read the minds and hearts of millions of martyrs to judge them as false Christians perhaps you can tell me how many people became true Christians in the first century alone after the gospel was preached throughout the then inhabited world.

  Him: As far a the first century Christians are concerned, maybe there were 100,000. IDK. I’m attempting to have a respectable conversation but your snarky comments attacking me are pointless. I don’t have access to exact numbers from 2000 years ago any more than you do.

  Me:(I don’t have access to exact numbers from 2000 years ago any more than you do.))

  True, but I'm not the one setting the limit or judging millions of martyrs as counterfeit Christians.

  The apostles taught many as did the disciples who were scattered abroad after the death of Stephen. Remember, the gospel was published throughout the entire inhabited world. Do you really know how many faithful Christians existed in the first century? You guess about 100,000. How do you know it wasn't 200,000 or much more?

  The fact is you don't know. All you are doing is presenting the the Slave's untenable guesswork based on an unrealistic number theory.

  Stop guessing and tell me what you know for a fact.
• 
  43

  How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  according to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.

  the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?

  .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Excellent Point Stan! Their number theory is untenable.
• 
  39

  Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  text: matthew 24:45-47.

  45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?

  46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Konagirl,

  I did not say that Hades hell was eternal. It is Gehenna aka the lake of fire which is eternal. I realize Hades is considered all about temporary torture until the final judgment where the torment will never end.

  Now, since you don't believe in torment after death, why do you think Jesus copied the Pharisees story about torment in the afterlife to illustrate some truth about judgment?

  And what was that truth he was illustrating?