Morman memes work well
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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32
Governing Body Memes
by jw07 inare there any sites with collections of governing body memes?
i see memes as a very effective way of getting the truth about the truth across without lengthy debate.
an effective meme is point and shoot since comedy holds the attention, jolts logic, is memorable, and is more likely to be viral.. something like this: http://t.qkme.me/3674l2.jpg.
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How will history treat Judge Rutherford?
by Vanderhoven7 inmark jones writes:.
how will history treat joseph rutherford?.
like ben gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back.
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Vanderhoven7
EA writes
Rutherford and his associates taught that CT Russell “went home”, meaning the Watchtower teaching back then was that Watchtower leaders would ascend to heaven at death.
Rutherford and Russell were like Jannes and Jambres, of whom the scriptures say “Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men.” (2 Timothy 3:8,9)
The scriptures make clear that the resurrection has not occurred yet. The only person who has ascended to heaven is Jesus. He was seen by others after his resurrection and before his ascension to heaven. When the heavenly resurrection occurs, there will be witnesses.
There were no witnesses to Russell’s “supposed” resurrection or to Rutherford’s. The current Watchtower leaders are liars when they say that so-called anointed Watchtower leaders have gone to heaven.
2 Timothy 2:16–18
“But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them. These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.”
Russell and Rutherford as well as all the Watchtower leaders following them have taught many God-dishonoring doctrines, misleading religious-minded people away from the chastity due the Christ. Watchtower leaders have caused those following them to commit spiritual fornication. Watchtower is like Jezebel. Christ will throw her into a sickbed, and all of her children will share in her plagues.
Revelation 2:20–23
“Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.”
Lovers of Jehovah will separate themselves from Watchtower to avoid sharing in Watchtower’s sins. Jesus is permanently “disfellowshipping” the Watchtower organization.
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23
How will history treat Judge Rutherford?
by Vanderhoven7 inmark jones writes:.
how will history treat joseph rutherford?.
like ben gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back.
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Vanderhoven7
Mark Jones writes:
How will history treat Joseph Rutherford?
Like Ben Gorden has said, it would depend on who’s looking back. We can see a perfect example of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses will remember him by quoting Ben himself:
I see Rutherford as a man of many imperfections who also happened to be great organizer and motivator, and was able to progress in knowledge and Bible understanding. Beside that he was just a man dedicated to spreading the good news of Gods Kingdom to all the earth.
What’s interesting is, even Ben knows that the “understanding” and “Bible knowledge” that Rutherford was spreading is not what Jehovah’s Witnesses now believe. In other words, if you were to teach the things he was teaching today you would be disfellowshipped.
Much like if you were to ask white supremacist skinheads what they think of Adolf Hitler, you’d get a different answer than you’d expect if you asked a regular person. They’d likely tell you that Hitler was a wonderful man who kept his promises, loved animals, banned animal testing and restored Germany’s economy. They would probably play down the 6 million Jews, the seige of Leningrad or extermination of disabled German children.
Rutherford will be remembered by the Jehovah’s Witnesses much like Ben has described. However, the pages of history wont be so kind. Rather than make this an opinion biased answer, I will state historical facts and cite my sources:
- He was an alcoholic, a drunkard, unkind to Bethel staff, prone to bursts of anger, foul mouthed and a bigot - and that was a description from those who worked closely with him! Read the full letter by clicking the link here:
- Like Donald Trump, he viciously attacked the reputation of those close to him who disagreed with him. Below is Rutherford’s public reply to the personal letter (above) sent to him by someone who dared to highlight their concerns.
'For four years past the writer of that letter has been entrusted with the confidential matters of the Society. It now appears that the writer of that letter, without excuse, libels the family of God at Bethel, and identifies himself as one who speaks evil against the Lord's organization, and who is a murmurer and complainer, even as the Scriptures have foretold (Jude 4-16; 1 Cor. 4:3; Rom. 14:4). - Watchtower 1939 Oct 15 pp.316-317
- He was even successfully sued by Watchtowers own legal council for $15,000.
- He predicted that Armageddon would come by 1942.
"Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." Watchtower 1941 Sep 15 p.288
- He encouraged Witnesses to put off having children until after Armageddon.
"Would it be Scripturally proper for them to now marry and to begin to rear children? No, is the answer, which is supported by the Scripture . Those Jonadabs who now contemplate marriage, it would seem, would do better if they wait a few years, until the fiery storm of Armageddon is gone..." Face the Facts (1938) pp.46-50
"...mark the words of Jesus, which definitely seem to discourage the bearing of children immediately before or during Armageddon Watchtower 1938 November 1 p.324
- He believed that love between a man and a woman was “a delusion” and taught that people should only get married if they cant stay celibate.
"God's consecrated people do well to refrain from marriage unless they find themselves continually tormented with desire for sexual intercourse, in which case they should marry. For those of the younger or older who have need to marry on this score, let them dispose of the matter in candor and honesty shunning the blight, the delusions and illusions of "love" so called and courtship, which bring reproach on the holy name of Jehovah." Golden Age 1937 January 27 edition "That Delusion Called Love"
- He tried to curry favor with Adolf Hitler before WWII and even claimed that the Bible Students had the same high ideals as the Nazis.
BELOW IS A TRANSLATION FROM GERMAN OF PARTS OF THE LETTER WRITTEN BY JF RUTHERFORD TO ADOLF HITLER. A PHOTOCOPY OF THE FULL LETTER CAN BE VIEWED BY CLICKING THE LINKS HERE -
"Dear Reichskanzler,
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The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.
In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.
The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.
The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.
We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.
Yours faithfully,
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg"- He was an anti-semite.
"Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position" The Golden Age 1927 Feb 23 p.343
"The Jews were evicted from Palestine and ‘their house left unto them desolate’ because they rejected Christ Jesus, the beloved and anointed King of Jehovah. To this day the Jews have not repented of this wrongful act committed by their forefathers. … In 1917 the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan's organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. ... The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved." Vindication - Book II (1932) pp.257-258
- He built a mansion in California using members donated funds, claiming that the prophets from the Bible would be resurrected in 1925 and could live there with him.
"The year 1926 would therefore begin about October first, 1925. ... We should, therefore, expect shortly after 1925 to see the awakening of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Melchisedec, Job, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, and others mentioned in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. The Way to Paradise (1925) p.224
No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, and those other men of old, come forth in the glory of their "better resurrection," perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their posts of honor and authority as his earthly representatives. The world and all the present conveniences will seem strange to them at first, but they will soon become accustomed to the new methods. They may have some amusing experiences at first; for they never saw telephones, radios, automobiles, electric lights, aeroplanes, steam engines, and many other things so familiar to us." The Way to Paradise pp.226-227
- When it didn't happen, he taught that they would be resurrected “soon” and all that the resurrected bible characters needed to do was to come forward and prove to Rutherford that they were from Bible times.
"Both the grantor and the grantee are fully persuaded from the Bible testimony which is the word of Jehovah God and from extraneous evidence that God's Kingdom is now in the course of establishment and that it will result beneficially for the peoples of earth; that the governing power and authority will be invisible to men but that the kingdom of God will have visible representatives on the earth who will have charge of the affairs of the nations under supervision of the invisible ruler, Christ. That among those who will be thus the faithful representatives and visible governors of the world will be David, who was once King over Israel; and Gideon, and Barak, and Samson, and Jepthai, and Joseph, formerly ruler of Egypt, and Samuel the prophet and other faithful men named with approval in the Bible at Hebrews 11th. chapter. The WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY shall hold said title perpetually in trust for the use of any or all of the men above named as representatives of God's kingdom on earth and that such men shall have possession and use of said property hereinabove described as they may deem for the best interest for the work in which they are engaged. Any persons appearing to take possession of said premises shall first prove and identify themselves to the proper officers of said Society as the person or persons described in Hebrews chapter eleven and in this deed." Golden Age 1930 Mar 19 pp.400,401
- When his prophecy failed, he moved into the mansion by himself and it became his private residence.
- He personally wrote more than 26 books and over 50 booklets. None of which are ever quoted or referred to in Watchtower literature because they’re considered “old light” (in other words - they’re not true!).
- He owned two Cadillacs during the depression - bought using donated funds.
So how one remembers JF Rutherford is entirely dependent on if they’re emotionally attached to an organization that praises him as “a great organizer and motivator… able to progress in knowledge and Bible understanding.” And if any flaws are brought to their attention they can shrug them off as “…he was just a man dedicated to spreading the good news of Gods Kingdom to all the earth”
However, if one if concerned with facts and evidence (notice my points are all referenced) he will be remembered as as a charlatan, a conman, an anti-semite, a bigot, a drunk and a bully.
Footnotes
[8] http://Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich by M. James Penton, University of Toronto Press, 2004, p 368; though Salter's letter was dated "April 1, 1937", Penton writes, "Salter had broken with the Watch Tower Society and had been excommunicated from the Witness community at the time he wrote the letter." -
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Visited the Russell gravesite yesterday
by dropoffyourkeylee inwife and i visited the russell gravesite in allegheny (pittsburgh) pennsylvania yesterday.
i’ll post photos if i can get them to upload on the hotel wifi..
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Vanderhoven7
Watchtower should put up a sign beside the gravestone saying...Russell is not here, he is risen to heavenly life as of April 1918.
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
@Slim
That would be just like the Borg to change their understanding on unsupported teachings fir self protection.
Do you have any documation on this alledged change?
Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the Globe. Gods infallible Word depicts this group as 'coming out of the great tribulation,' being survivors of it, living right on into God's New Order without ever having to die (Revelation 7:9,10,14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60's or 70's or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowed" including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." (Survival Into a New Earth p. 185 emphasis mine)
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What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe?
by Vanderhoven7 inthought this summary from helge kare fauskanger was well written and worth sharing.. "for starters, imagine a distinctly insular form of protestant fundamentalism minus the trinity (god and jesus are held to be separate beings, and the holy spirit is god's active power rather than a person).
note: since the witnesses want to think of their faith as something absolutely unique, they themselves will not agree that they are either protestant or fundamentalist.. * very important to call god by his proper name of jehovah, and as noted, you must not get him mixed up with jesus.
jesus is not part of the godhead but "actually" the first created being, through whom jehovah created the rest of the universe.
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Vanderhoven7
Thought this summary from Helge Kare Fauskanger was well written and worth sharing.
"For starters, imagine a distinctly insular form of Protestant Fundamentalism minus the Trinity (God and Jesus are held to be separate beings, and the Holy Spirit is God's active power rather than a person). Note: Since the Witnesses want to think of their faith as something absolutely unique, they themselves will not agree that they are either Protestant or Fundamentalist.
* Very important to call God by his proper name of Jehovah, and as noted, you must not get him mixed up with Jesus. Jesus is not part of the godhead but "actually" the first created being, through whom Jehovah created the rest of the universe. Otherwise pretty standard understanding of Jesus' role (literal virgin birth, sacrificial death, resurrection etc.)
* The Witnesses are Jehovah's visible organization (the angels are the invisible one). The concept of this supposedly unique organization, and how everyone owes it absolute obedience, is hugely important. The Governing Body of the Witnesses is nothing less than God's channel of information for our age, Jehovah's "faithful and discreet slave". The Bible is revered as God's Inspired Word, but never imagine that you can gain a proper understanding of it except by accepting the wise guidance of the Organization.
* The year 1914 is huge. Its exact significance has changed over the years, but today, the Witnesses will tell you that 1914 was the beginning of the Endtimes, when God (of course invisibly) established his Kingdom in heaven, Jesus receiving kingly powers from Jehovah.
* The End is supposed to come within one generation after 1914. With the passing of the years, this doctrine has become problematic, with various solutions being attempted since the mid-nineties. Currently, the Governing Body teaches that this "generation" is actually two overlapping generations: some who knew those who saw the start of the Endtimes in 1914 will live to see the End. No doubt about it ... but do stay tuned for further doctrinal developments.
* The conviction that we are deep into the Endtimes thus permeates the entire religion, and adherents have spent 100+ years warning the world (or if you like, crying wolf). Any day now, everyone outside the faith will be summarily wiped out by an angry deity in the global holocaust of Armageddon. There is some uncertainty as to how Jehovah will deal with small children, the mentally disabled etc., but at least if you are a sane adult, your future is very bleak unless you become a Witness before the ever-imminent Armageddon strikes.
* After Armageddon, the obedient survivors will be ruled by God's heavenly Kingdom and will spend a thousand years turning the entire planet into a global Garden of Eden. During this time, most people who died before Armageddon will be resurrected into the emerging earthly paradise, and may gain eternal life if (and only if) they submit to the Kingdom.
* Those who die in Armageddon are however excluded and will never be resurrected. So if you don't plan to become a Witness, pray that you will die really soon, before Armageddon strikes and you are wiped out forever. (One might think that the last generation that generally had time to die off before Armageddon will not be very impressed by Jehovah's supposed "justice" when they are resurrected and learn that their children are gone forever for no other reason that of all generations, they were so singularly unlucky as to be the ones that were alive when Armageddon struck. However, Watchtower literature never discusses this.)
* Getting to live forever in the coming earthly paradise, in perfect health and perpetual youth, is the only salvation available to the average believer. Most of the saved do not go to heaven; this is the special privilege of no more than 144,000 people, who are resurrected as spirit creatures instead of resuming lives as earthly humans. The 144,000 select ones will serve as co-regents of Jesus in the heavenly Kingdom.
* The unsaved are simply destroyed; there is no hell, and indeed no immaterial human souls that could go to hell anyway. (Doctrine similar to Seventh-Day Adventism in this regard.) The dead are unconscious and non-existent, except insofar as God remembers them and will eventually resurrect many of them.
* Morals: generally Puritan, with the added detail that having blood transfusions (or just as bad: eating/drinking blood) is totally wrong. Dress modestly (and if you are a woman, don't try to wear pants in Kingdom Hall). No tobacco. Alcohol (if any) only in moderation. Women must submit to their "husbandly heads". Sex strictly within marriage. Gay marriage -- you've got to be kidding. Abortion is obviously completely off the table. Incidentally, it seems aborted fetuses will be resurrected in the earthly paradise. Their murderous mothers, not necessarily.
* Entertainment must be "wholesome". There is a great fear of "spiritism", so anything even remotely touching on magic, ghosts etc. is to be shunned as unclean and dangerous. The entire modern fantasy genre would seem to be off limits. One relatively recent "educational" Watchtower cartoon intended for children shows how a little boy has received a cute-looking action-figure of "Sparlock the Wizard" from a non-Witness friend. His mother promptly guilts him into throwing the wretched plastic wizard away, since wizards use magic and magic "makes Jehovah sad". And we don't want to make Jehovah sad, do we?
* As regards "secular" scholarship and science, Higher Criticism of the Bible goes out of the window, as does evolution. The Witnesses are however Old Earth creationists rather than Young Earth. The universe and the planet may be billions of years old for all they care, but the human race is only six thousand years old, descended from a literal Adam and a literal Eve that were directly created by Jehovah in the year 4026 BCE with no link to the animal world: Sorry, Darwin, you and generations of scientists after you have got it all wrong. Literal global deluge in 2370 BCE. If geologists can't find any trace of it, it is their problem.
* Competing forms of Christianity aren't recognized as genuinely Christian at all, but are referred to as "Christendom", a word that has overwhelmingly negative connotations in Watchtower literature. Three cardinal mistakes of "Christendom" are often listed as the belief in an immortal/immaterial soul, the belief in hellfire/eternal torture, and the concept of the Trinity.
I think that covers the main points.
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Door to Door
by pontoon injust wondering if the witnesses still go door to door.
once in a while i see them doing their cart work and my still in relatives talk about going out in cart work, never mention door to door.
i haven't had a knock on my door since probably 2 years before covid.
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Vanderhoven7
It's OK, Jesus never instructed anyone to go door to door. Neither did the apostles. And it is unlikely that the early Christians went door to door on Saturday mornings or any other mornings before they took a break for coffee and donuts.
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
Wow! Finally got the Bumps.
Nicolaou wrote:
"The Society have taught for many years that only 144,000 individuals will have embraced true worship from the time when Jesus (and presumably John the Baptist six months before him) began his ministry in about 30 C.E. all the way down through to about 1935 C.E. when the Great Crowd began to be drawn in.
However, even a casual reading of the book of Acts shows the phenomenal growth of Christianity during the time of the Apostles. In Colossians Ch1 Paul even makes the comment that the Good News had at that point been preached to all creation that was under heaven.
In 64 C.E, there were so many Christians in Rome already that Nero felt he could easily blame them for the destructive fire which had swept through the city. Of the fourteen districts of Rome only two survived unscathed, these were the lower class districts in the 'swampy' regions of Rome where the Christians lived! [see Carcopino's 'Daily Life in Ancient Rome']
The city housed, even by conservative estimates, over 1,000,000 people in the 1st century. It seems that almost as many as one in seven of these may have been Christian, that's over 140,000 already!
And what about Jerusalem, Athens, Antioch not to mention the congregations of Asia, Egypt and the whole region of the Decapolis.If, as the Society state in the Proclaimers book, about 60,000 of the anointed have existed since the time of C T Russell then that would mean that there could have been no more than about 85,000 Christians throughout 'all creation under heaven' in the 1st century. (This incidentally would make Russell a more successfull preacher than Christ!)
C'mon now! You're not still buying into this whole 144'000 thing . . . . . . . . are you?
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
Again
How in the world does the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses presume know that less than 1% of the millions of those martyred for the name of Christ from Pentecost to the start of the 20th century were real Christians?
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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?
by Vanderhoven7 intext: matthew 24:45-47.
45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
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Vanderhoven7
Yes, I was one of those Bible Students in the 60s; attended a number of conventions, even spoke at Grove City as a teenager; new some of the Chicago brethren including Charles Loukey. The Bible Students are still around having dropped 1914 and pushing a more Christ-centered agenda; still associated with one congregation in Lombard Ill.
Learn more at: http://bbschurch.org/