Posts by Vanderhoven7

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

LET'S EXAMINE THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE APOSTLES:

CONSUME:

Does "consuming" denote or imply perpetual/endless torture?

PERISH:

Does perishing, "as brute beasts", denote perpetual or endless pain?

DESTROY/DESTRUCTION/EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION:

Does eternal destruction denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?

DEATH:

Does death denote "perpetual/endless anguish"?

ETERNAL FIRE:

Does eternal fire denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?

Could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction?

WRATH OF GOD:

Does "wrath" denote "perpetual/endless pain"?

Would it be fair to say that God's wrath in the Old Testament

aimed at destruction, not endless torment as in the case of Noah's

flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

TROUBLE AND DISTRESS:

Does "trouble and distress" denote "endless torture"? Could the trouble and distress poured out on the wicked ultimately lead to their destruction, i.e., death?

BLACKNESS AND DARKNESS FOREVER:

Does "blackness and darkness forever" denote conscious torment? Could "blackness and darkness forever" be a metaphor for death? Similar eternal darkness imagery is encountered in Psalm 49:18-19 which reads:

(18) Though while he (the wealthy) lived, he counted

himself blessed...(19) he will join the generation of his

fathers, who will never see the light of life.

SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER:

Does eternal exclusion from God's presence, power and majesty denote endless torment? It is interesting to note that this description of final punishment is preceded by the phrase, "PUNISHED BY EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". This destruction both originates or proceeds from God's fiery presence and "it will remove the wicked away from that presence forever". Certainly, no sinner can dwell for long in God's holy presence (Is.33:10-17) without being consumed. But even though the nature of final destruction excludes the possibility of sinners ever entering God's presence, nothing in the language requires unending conscious experience.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@ Sea Breeze

"do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - Jesus"

Look at the full verse SB.

4. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN GEHENNA.

The words "kill" and "destroy" are used interchangeably in the text. And strangely, it appears that both body and soul are capable of being destroyed or killed in Gehenna. Additionally, nothing in this verse suggests immortality of the soul and instead contradicts it.. Neither kill nor destroy denote or even suggest pain or torment.

Now you would have a case if the verse read:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO TORMENT BOTH YOUR BODY AND YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL FOR ETERNITY IN GEHENNA.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@TTWSYF

You are right. I don't see the word soul there and I also do not see the word torment or pain.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Scripture Sea Breeze, scripture!

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@ TTWSYF

Regardless of loads of scripture...if they don't say people will be tormented forever, then that meaning is added to the text. Loads do not impress me. Give me one scripture; that's all I need.

You brought out a passage which you feel speaks of eternal torment.

Mark 9:43-44 And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into GEHENNA, INTO THE FIRE THAT SHALL NEVER BE QUENCHED. (44) Where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched.

GEHENNA: Does the term Gehenna denote or suggest eternal torment?

Gehenna was a 600 ft deep gorge, called the valley of (GE)Hinnom, that in Jesus day, was being used as a garbage dump. It was situated just outside Jerusalem. Garbage, carcasses of animals and even the dead bodies of criminals were cast into Gehenna, without burial, to be utterly destroyed by the unquenchable fires that burned night and day and the seemingly endless supply of scavenging worms and other natural elements.

Nothing was thrown into Gehenna alive or in a conscious state, and nothing was tormented in the literal Gehenna. Jesus employed Gehenna figuratively to depict the unlimited destruction associated with the "second death".

Gehenna, had a bad history. God judged Israel for her sins (Jeremiah.7:31-33; 19:2-13) and prophesied to fill this valley full of bodies. Josephus informs us that countless bodies were heaped there following the Roman siege in 69/70 AD. By Jesus' day, the term "Gehenna" was commonplace imagery in Jewish literature. Gehenna evoked a sense of total dishonor and disgust; it suggested judgment, death, decay and destruction, not eternal torment.

FIRE: Does fire in scripture tend to denote torment?

Fire is commonly used as a symbol for destruction, rather than conscious torment. God's fiery judgments burn till all is consumed (See Mal. 4:1 and Ez. 28:18-19). Fire is said to consume sinners and cities.

ETERNAL FIRE:

Does eternal fire denote or necessitate ongoing conscious suffering?

The destruction of Sodom was notably quick and merciful, but its desolation perpetual. (Is. 13:19-22, Jer. 50:40) This sudden destruction, resulted in total desolation that would never be reversed. This is an example of the eternal fire associated with God's final fiery judgment. (Jude 7, 2 Peter 3:10)

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE:

Does unquenchable fire denote conscious perpetual pain?

God's prediction of Jerusalem's destruction with unquenchable fire was fulfilled when enemy armies burned Jerusalem in 586 BC. (Jeremiah 17:27) Did the unquenchable fire of Jerusalem's judgment ever go out? Unquenchable fire symbolizes destruction which nothing will prevent.

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE AND UNDYING WORMS:

Do Fire and worms, the twin elements of destruction in literal Gehenna, denote eternal torment? This same imagery is used in Isaiah 66:24 to describe the righteous looking over the "dead corpses" (pegerim). The righteous viewed their destruction, not their misery or torment. They were not looking at eternal worms or fires that never went out through eternity.

It is equally important to note that Jesus' use of Gehenna as a figure of eternal destruction did not demand or even imply immortal worms or flames that would never go out throughout history, much less human suffering and torment. The unquenchable fire and the undying worm in literal Gehenna, points to the completion of the work of destruction. In literal Gehenna, the worms did not die off or the fires abate until the corpses were destroyed completely. The purpose of Gehenna was destruction, not torment. To sum up, the literal place of Gehenna was not a place of torment; rather than conveying torment, literal Gehenna conveyed death and decay. It evoked feelings of disgust, revulsion and contempt or loathing from onlookers, not torment and pain of indwellers.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

Where do you find eternal souls in the Bible? The soul can be destroyed in Gehenna (the second death) according to Jesus. This mortal must put on immortality but that happens at the resurrection according to Paul.

Re: Jude 7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Wonderful verse. Do you see the word or concept of torment here? The fire that destroyed Sodom was eternal. But does "eternal fire" clearly denote either conscious experience, or a continual burning flame which causes endless suffering? Or could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction? Interestingly, because something is eternal or everlasting in scripture does not necessitate endless perpetuity of action. For example, Hebrews 6:2 speaks of "Eternal Judgment", not in the sense that the final judgment scene will be reenacted day after day for eternity, but that a final judgment will be made that will have eternal consequences for the wicked.

- Similarly, rather than denoting an endless process of ongoing torture, could "eternal fire" be descriptive of a destruction which is unending in the sense that it will never be reversed?

- In other words, could the consequences of the fire be eternal and not the burning process itself?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@TTWSYF

"What makes you think that eternal hellfire must be present in the Old Testament? Is it somehow not valid because it’s in the New Testament and not in the Old Testament?"

Firstly, eternal torment of eternal human souls is not found in the New Testament.

Of course God could spring eternal torment on the wicked as a surprize punishment anytime He wants.

However, the Pharisees used both torment after death and eternal torment at the judgment to control the common people. So I want eternal torment supporters to tell me how and when these religious leaders acquired this teaching about the immortality of the soul and endless retributive pain as the penalty for sin....if they didn't get it from the Holy Ghost.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@c SeaBreeze

I asked specifically for eternal torment from the Hebrew scriptures, .i.e., the Old Testament. So how did the rulers in Israel come up with Abraham's Bosom and Torment in Sheol/Hades?

Interesting that not one of the scriptures you list from the New Testament speaks of eternal torment or eternal pain for human beings. Eternal fire and eternal punishment simply stand for eternal destruction, not eternal existence. Babylon's torment lasts only one hour, but it's smoke ascends forever as a reminder of God's eternal eradication of sin and evil. Hebrews speaks of eternal judgment, not that there will be an ongoing or never-ending court case, but that a judgment will be made with eternal consequences for wicked human beings

Please supply the actual verses, not just the references that prove eternal torment of the wicked. How about the five most convincing verses to start with.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

No one has a problem with eternal punishment. The problem is with eternal conscious punishment or eternal punishing. The wages of sin is death, not torment.

It is not strange that you can only present one verse in the OT to support eternal punishing and yet the word torment is not included.

On top of that, the word contempt is not what the unrighteous are described as experiencing. It is the righteous who eternally view the wicked with contempt.

Albert Barnes writes

"The word "contempt" (דראון derâ'ôn) means, properly, a repulse; and then aversion, abhorrence. The meaning here is aversion or abhorrence - the feeling with which we turn away from what is loathsome, disgusting, or hateful. Then it denotes the state of mind with which we contemplate the vile and the abandoned; and in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial. The word everlasting completes the image, meaning that this feeling of loathing and abhorrence would continue forever. In a subordinate sense this language might be used to denote the feelings with which cowards, ingrates, and apostates are regarded on earth; but it cannot be doubted that it will receive its most perfect fulfillment in the future world - in that aversion with which the lost will be viewed by all holy beings in the world to come."

So where do you think the religious rulers in Jesus day got the idea that the wicked experience torment after death and eternal torment after final judgment?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

Where did the religious leaders in Jesus day get torment after death?

And where did the term Abraham' Bosom originate, if it also not found in the Old Testament?