I'm not asking for more proof. I'm asking for some proof. I don't care what some or most Christians believe or believed.
It's fine if you cannot support your beliefs from scripture and have to deflect to what others believe.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
No TTWSF
It's what the scriptures say that is important.
And so far you have not produced a single scripture to support immortality of the soul or eternal torment.or explained where the term Abraham's Bosom originated.
Let me ask you another question while I am at it. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to alleviate the suffering of the poor?
Actually watch my video and you will find out.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
What I believe is immaterial. What I want is clarity on the nature of the soul and final punishment.
As for Lazarus and the Rich Man. The account is to be taken literally but it is totally fictional. Jesus was a master satirist long before Jonathan Swift.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
So Gentlemen
Where are the babies and young children that underwent Sodom's destruction? What are they experiencing?
Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or in torment in Sheol/Hades?
Or, are they, as I believe, resting in peace until the resurrection?
Here is clarity for you my friends!
And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell. Day and night for all eternity, the wicked will call out for mercy, but there will be none to save. Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain. Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing to comfort them. Jumping Jehosaphat 3:16
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
So far gents you have failed to show me a single verse that suggests
1. where in the OT the religious rulers in Israel derived temporary torment after death and eternal torment as final punishment.
2. human souls are innately immortal
3. eternal torment of human beings is the nature of final punishment.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
LET'S EXAMINE THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE APOSTLES:
CONSUME:
Does "consuming" denote or imply perpetual/endless torture?
PERISH:
Does perishing, "as brute beasts", denote perpetual or endless pain?
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION/EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION:
Does eternal destruction denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?
DEATH:
Does death denote "perpetual/endless anguish"?
ETERNAL FIRE:
Does eternal fire denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?
Could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction?
WRATH OF GOD:
Does "wrath" denote "perpetual/endless pain"?
Would it be fair to say that God's wrath in the Old Testament
aimed at destruction, not endless torment as in the case of Noah's
flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?
TROUBLE AND DISTRESS:
Does "trouble and distress" denote "endless torture"? Could the trouble and distress poured out on the wicked ultimately lead to their destruction, i.e., death?
BLACKNESS AND DARKNESS FOREVER:
Does "blackness and darkness forever" denote conscious torment? Could "blackness and darkness forever" be a metaphor for death? Similar eternal darkness imagery is encountered in Psalm 49:18-19 which reads:
(18) Though while he (the wealthy) lived, he counted
himself blessed...(19) he will join the generation of his
fathers, who will never see the light of life.
SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER:
Does eternal exclusion from God's presence, power and majesty denote endless torment? It is interesting to note that this description of final punishment is preceded by the phrase, "PUNISHED BY EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". This destruction both originates or proceeds from God's fiery presence and "it will remove the wicked away from that presence forever". Certainly, no sinner can dwell for long in God's holy presence (Is.33:10-17) without being consumed. But even though the nature of final destruction excludes the possibility of sinners ever entering God's presence, nothing in the language requires unending conscious experience.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@ Sea Breeze
"do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - Jesus"
Look at the full verse SB.
4. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN GEHENNA.
The words "kill" and "destroy" are used interchangeably in the text. And strangely, it appears that both body and soul are capable of being destroyed or killed in Gehenna. Additionally, nothing in this verse suggests immortality of the soul and instead contradicts it.. Neither kill nor destroy denote or even suggest pain or torment.
Now you would have a case if the verse read:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO TORMENT BOTH YOUR BODY AND YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL FOR ETERNITY IN GEHENNA.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@TTWSYF
You are right. I don't see the word soul there and I also do not see the word torment or pain.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
Scripture Sea Breeze, scripture!
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@ TTWSYF
Regardless of loads of scripture...if they don't say people will be tormented forever, then that meaning is added to the text. Loads do not impress me. Give me one scripture; that's all I need.
You brought out a passage which you feel speaks of eternal torment.
Mark 9:43-44 And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into GEHENNA, INTO THE FIRE THAT SHALL NEVER BE QUENCHED. (44) Where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched.
GEHENNA: Does the term Gehenna denote or suggest eternal torment?
Gehenna was a 600 ft deep gorge, called the valley of (GE)Hinnom, that in Jesus day, was being used as a garbage dump. It was situated just outside Jerusalem. Garbage, carcasses of animals and even the dead bodies of criminals were cast into Gehenna, without burial, to be utterly destroyed by the unquenchable fires that burned night and day and the seemingly endless supply of scavenging worms and other natural elements.
Nothing was thrown into Gehenna alive or in a conscious state, and nothing was tormented in the literal Gehenna. Jesus employed Gehenna figuratively to depict the unlimited destruction associated with the "second death".
Gehenna, had a bad history. God judged Israel for her sins (Jeremiah.7:31-33; 19:2-13) and prophesied to fill this valley full of bodies. Josephus informs us that countless bodies were heaped there following the Roman siege in 69/70 AD. By Jesus' day, the term "Gehenna" was commonplace imagery in Jewish literature. Gehenna evoked a sense of total dishonor and disgust; it suggested judgment, death, decay and destruction, not eternal torment.
FIRE: Does fire in scripture tend to denote torment?
Fire is commonly used as a symbol for destruction, rather than conscious torment. God's fiery judgments burn till all is consumed (See Mal. 4:1 and Ez. 28:18-19). Fire is said to consume sinners and cities.
ETERNAL FIRE:
Does eternal fire denote or necessitate ongoing conscious suffering?
The destruction of Sodom was notably quick and merciful, but its desolation perpetual. (Is. 13:19-22, Jer. 50:40) This sudden destruction, resulted in total desolation that would never be reversed. This is an example of the eternal fire associated with God's final fiery judgment. (Jude 7, 2 Peter 3:10)
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE:
Does unquenchable fire denote conscious perpetual pain?
God's prediction of Jerusalem's destruction with unquenchable fire was fulfilled when enemy armies burned Jerusalem in 586 BC. (Jeremiah 17:27) Did the unquenchable fire of Jerusalem's judgment ever go out? Unquenchable fire symbolizes destruction which nothing will prevent.
UNQUENCHABLE FIRE AND UNDYING WORMS:
Do Fire and worms, the twin elements of destruction in literal Gehenna, denote eternal torment? This same imagery is used in Isaiah 66:24 to describe the righteous looking over the "dead corpses" (pegerim). The righteous viewed their destruction, not their misery or torment. They were not looking at eternal worms or fires that never went out through eternity.
It is equally important to note that Jesus' use of Gehenna as a figure of eternal destruction did not demand or even imply immortal worms or flames that would never go out throughout history, much less human suffering and torment. The unquenchable fire and the undying worm in literal Gehenna, points to the completion of the work of destruction. In literal Gehenna, the worms did not die off or the fires abate until the corpses were destroyed completely. The purpose of Gehenna was destruction, not torment. To sum up, the literal place of Gehenna was not a place of torment; rather than conveying torment, literal Gehenna conveyed death and decay. It evoked feelings of disgust, revulsion and contempt or loathing from onlookers, not torment and pain of indwellers.