Posts by Vanderhoven7

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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@TTWSYF

Lazarus and the rich man IS proof.

Can a spoof be proof?

The rich man is BEING tormented. There’s no supporting texts saying that it’s going to end. That’s proof enough to me. He’s burning and NOT dying.

The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.

Verse 25 tell us why the rich man ended up in torment and Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom. Let me paraphrase here:

Abraham said, "SON, it's because Lazarus suffered torments in life and was poor and so he ended up in paradise ... but because you had a good life and had all you wanted, you are now in torments. It's only fair."

How do you think the Pharisees might have reacted to this story? I think it would mirror their response to the preceding allegory commending the covetous self-seeking steward. Good satire, subtly but forcefully, brings home moral or spiritual truths and at the same time leaves unworthy opponents speechless; unable to argue, without first acknowledging that they fit into the negative allegory....leaving them no choice but to attack the man rather than dealing with concepts he was challenging them with.

BTW, the headline in the Jerusalem Chronicle the next day was; "Jesus Turns The Table on The Pharisees in the Afterlife!"

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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

I'm not asking for more proof. I'm asking for some proof. I don't care what some or most Christians believe or believed.

It's fine if you cannot support your beliefs from scripture and have to deflect to what others believe.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

No TTWSF

It's what the scriptures say that is important.

And so far you have not produced a single scripture to support immortality of the soul or eternal torment.or explained where the term Abraham's Bosom originated.

Let me ask you another question while I am at it. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to alleviate the suffering of the poor?

Actually watch my video and you will find out.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

What I believe is immaterial. What I want is clarity on the nature of the soul and final punishment.

As for Lazarus and the Rich Man. The account is to be taken literally but it is totally fictional. Jesus was a master satirist long before Jonathan Swift.

https://youtu.be/yToS8shwDQI?si=c6mNZDs_5Br1HZsE

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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

So Gentlemen

Where are the babies and young children that underwent Sodom's destruction? What are they experiencing?

Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or in torment in Sheol/Hades?

Or, are they, as I believe, resting in peace until the resurrection?

Here is clarity for you my friends!

And the wages of sin is eternal suffering in hell. Day and night for all eternity, the wicked will call out for mercy, but there will be none to save. Their immortal souls will writhe in endless pain. Their anger will never dissipate. They will weep and howl in the fires of eternity, aware of their loss, their endless future, with no one or nothing to comfort them. Jumping Jehosaphat 3:16

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

So far gents you have failed to show me a single verse that suggests

1. where in the OT the religious rulers in Israel derived temporary torment after death and eternal torment as final punishment.

2. human souls are innately immortal

3. eternal torment of human beings is the nature of final punishment.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

LET'S EXAMINE THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE APOSTLES:

CONSUME:

Does "consuming" denote or imply perpetual/endless torture?

PERISH:

Does perishing, "as brute beasts", denote perpetual or endless pain?

DESTROY/DESTRUCTION/EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION:

Does eternal destruction denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?

DEATH:

Does death denote "perpetual/endless anguish"?

ETERNAL FIRE:

Does eternal fire denote or imply perpetual/endless suffering?

Could "eternal fire" simply be a metaphor for eternal destruction?

WRATH OF GOD:

Does "wrath" denote "perpetual/endless pain"?

Would it be fair to say that God's wrath in the Old Testament

aimed at destruction, not endless torment as in the case of Noah's

flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

TROUBLE AND DISTRESS:

Does "trouble and distress" denote "endless torture"? Could the trouble and distress poured out on the wicked ultimately lead to their destruction, i.e., death?

BLACKNESS AND DARKNESS FOREVER:

Does "blackness and darkness forever" denote conscious torment? Could "blackness and darkness forever" be a metaphor for death? Similar eternal darkness imagery is encountered in Psalm 49:18-19 which reads:

(18) Though while he (the wealthy) lived, he counted

himself blessed...(19) he will join the generation of his

fathers, who will never see the light of life.

SHUT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE MAJESTY OF HIS POWER:

Does eternal exclusion from God's presence, power and majesty denote endless torment? It is interesting to note that this description of final punishment is preceded by the phrase, "PUNISHED BY EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION". This destruction both originates or proceeds from God's fiery presence and "it will remove the wicked away from that presence forever". Certainly, no sinner can dwell for long in God's holy presence (Is.33:10-17) without being consumed. But even though the nature of final destruction excludes the possibility of sinners ever entering God's presence, nothing in the language requires unending conscious experience.

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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@ Sea Breeze

"do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - Jesus"

Look at the full verse SB.

4. Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL IN GEHENNA.

The words "kill" and "destroy" are used interchangeably in the text. And strangely, it appears that both body and soul are capable of being destroyed or killed in Gehenna. Additionally, nothing in this verse suggests immortality of the soul and instead contradicts it.. Neither kill nor destroy denote or even suggest pain or torment.

Now you would have a case if the verse read:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but RATHER FEAR HIM WHICH IS ABLE TO TORMENT BOTH YOUR BODY AND YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL FOR ETERNITY IN GEHENNA.

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