Posts by Vanderhoven7

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Re: souls under the alter Rev.6:9

Very difficult to see bodiless souls, mortal or otherwise. This is obviously a vision describing the suffering church. The martyr's cry is akin to the blood of Able crying out for justice.(Gen.4:10)

Ellicott's commentary on this verse reads as follows

The word “souls” has been made a resting-place for an argument respecting the intermediate state. There is no ground for this: it is quite beside the object of the seal, which simply exhibits the sufferings of Christ’s people as the necessary accompaniment of the progress of the gospel. These sufferings are because of the Word of God and the testimony which they held. It was because of the Word of God and the testimony that the sacred seer himself suffered (Revelation 1:9). The words here remind us that the same issue which St. John fought, the suffering ones of after ages would be fighting. Their witness and his was the God-man; to this testimony they clung. They were not ashamed of Christ, or of His words, and they suffered for their courage and fidelity.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@ Vienne

Excellent response!

Even Martha knew when she would see her brother again.

"I know I will see him in Abraham's Bosom when I die", she said,

"Go to the top of the class Martha!", the Pharisees responded.

@Sea Breeze

<< Ez. 18:4 is correct. "The soul that is sinning will be separated from its body." (The New SeaBreeze Translation>>

(ASV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(DRB) Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

(GNB) The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.

(KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(KJV+) Behold,H2005 allH3605 soulsH5315 are mine; as the soulH5315 of the father,H1 so also the soulH5315 of the sonH1121 is mine: the soulH5315 that sinneth,H2398 itH1931 shall die.H4191

(KJVA) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(LITV) Behold, they are all My souls. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

(MKJV) Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

(YLT) Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son—they are Mine, The soul that is sinning—it doth die.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Is Satan literal?

Is Satan the dragon?

Is the dragon literal?

Eternal punishment is literal in the sense that eternal Judgment is literal.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Gentlemen

So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.

1. Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces or by the God of the Pharisees himself?

2. Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

3. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?

Hey, fyi I don't read long posts. So keep your answers short and simple. Thanks!

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Yes God will torment body and soul in the hell of the Pharisees. Remember Dives tongue could have a wee bit of relief from a few drops of water. Right now there are thousands of millions pleading for drops of water as we speak...all, no doubt to the glory of Satan... because God wants no one to be tormented eternally, but is obviously powerless to do anything about the situation.

Who is turning up the heat I wonder?

I always wondered why John Calvin sought to rescue Michael Servetus from half an hour of the intense pain of being burned alive at the stake...when he was sending him off to an eternity of the same. I guess John was more merciful than God and Satan or whoever created this imaginary place of torment.

And if God wants no one to be tormented eternally, how come his Faithful children under the alter are crying out in revenge for more heat to be applied?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

Both are literal.

Eternal judgment (Heb.6:2) is literal as well....but does eternal judgment require a never ending court case? There is a distinction between eternal judgment and eternal judging.

So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.

Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.

Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..

Thus immortality is something, alive or dead that we do not have currently.

Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment?

Was he saying: If Christ be not raised you Corinthians and everyone else will be tormented forever and ever....so eat drink and be merry until your torture begins. Oh wait, if you eat drink and engage in immoral practices, your pain levels in hell will increase exponentially.

Why not start answering my questions instead of ignoring them?

Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.

Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.

Note: those who are dead and those living at Christ's coming will be changed and given immortality.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Those living at Christ's coming will be changed

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..

Thus immortality is something that we do not have currently.

Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Well, since immortality is something we must wait till the resurrection to put on, I would say that is proof enough that human souls are not innately immortal.

BTW, all in their graves, good and evil, will come forth at the resurrection. So death is not the end.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@TTW

The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.

However, good news for you. The Pharisees believed the torment would last until the final judgment when the torment would be worse. You know, out of the frying pan, into the fire so-to-speak.

HISTORICAL NOTE: That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt attributed to Josephus (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.

Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behaviour and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hyms, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. (Underscoring mine)

Source: Flavius, Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator. pp. 901-902