I have only read a few posts on this issue. But my take is that if Watchtower relaxed it's shunning policy, the organization will lose one quarter of it's membership...namely all PIMOs with family members still in.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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86
New light on shunning?
by Mikejw inone theory why tony was booted out was because he was a stickler for not changing the shunning doctrine.
he actually said the words we will never ever change it.. they are slowly deleting all of tony’s videos and now losing court cases and losing government hand outs in places like norway.. it’s looking very likely they will release new light on shunning policy after losing this latest one in norway.. .
what are the odds they coincidentally get new light from jehovah and lighten up their shunning policy ?.
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49
What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?
by slimboyfat inthis is not a verse that i’ve seen feature heavily in trinitarian debates but it seems to me it presents a problem for the trinity.
if there are any around i’d be interested to know your perspective, or anything you can find on the meaning and how it doesn’t contradict the trinity.
the verse says:.
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Vanderhoven7
If any of you are aspiring to be a Catholic priest you must be able to speak on the subject of the Holy Trinity for 5 minutes without making more than 17 heresies.
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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
The emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read, ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ The promise was made on that day and it was to be fulfilled later. This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.” Gospel Light—Comments on the Teachings of Jesus From Aramaic and Unchanged Eastern Customs, pp. 303-304
It seems that Martha knew when she would see her brother again.
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Governing Body Memes
by jw07 inare there any sites with collections of governing body memes?
i see memes as a very effective way of getting the truth about the truth across without lengthy debate.
an effective meme is point and shoot since comedy holds the attention, jolts logic, is memorable, and is more likely to be viral.. something like this: http://t.qkme.me/3674l2.jpg.
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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
"Amen ... today ... in paradise"[edit]
The phrase translated "Amen, I say to you, today you will be in paradise" in Luke 23:43 ("Ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."[16] Amén soi légo sémeron met' emoû ése en tôi paradeísoi) is disputed in a minority of versions and commentaries. The Greek manuscripts are without punctuation, so attribution of the adverb "today" to the verb "be", as "Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (the majority view), or the verb "say", as "Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise" (the minority view), is dependent on analysis of word order conventions in Koine Greek. The majority of ancient Bible translations also follow the majority view, with only the Aramaic language Curetonian Gospels offering significant testimony to the minority view.
It seems that Martha held to the minority view.
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Does The WT Keep Files On ExJW Activists?
by NotFormer init occurred to me that the wt, if they can identify the activists that are currently campaigning against them, would have a lot of ability to compile detailed dossiers on them.
once identified, the elders of the appropriate congregation could be asked to forward copies of all their membership details held locally.. would they do that, and do such dossiers exist?.
(there are probably data collection rules governing such things in a lot of countries, but by no stretch of the imagination could the wt be considered a good corporate citizen).
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Vanderhoven7
I believe the GB have people monitoring this forum and others and that's what precipitated some of the more recent admissions and changes. They adjust just like the Borg
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
HISTORICAL NOTE: According to Vine's OT. Dictionary, "Sheol was not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimate resting place of all mankind". The idea that Sheol was a place of conscious punishment became predominant during the intertestamental period with the influence of Babylonian and subsequently Greek culture and philosophy upon Judaism. The apparent enigma of the righteous also being in Sheol was resolved in some but not all rabbinical circles, by subdividing or compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. The wicked were hopelessly consigned to an area of Sheol where punishments were applied commensurate with one's performance in life, while the righteous were segregated and awaiting redemption in a part of Sheol having paradisiacal dimensions, i.e.,Abraham's Bosom. As The New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology states, "With the infiltration of the Greek doctrine of immortality of the soul, paradise becomes the dwelling place of the righteous during the intermediate state."
Sheol, the hell of the OT is "the common fate of all mortals". Aside from the hope and promise of redemption for the righteous from Sheol's grip, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing the lot of the righteous from that of the unrighteous. Death then, becomes the universal enemy; it is not presented as a release to heavenly life and immortality. Rather, death is itself "the problem - for which resurrection is the answer". 7 Further, conscious punishment, regardless of duration, is not explicitly taught in any of the OT Sheol passages. If some kind of sustained torment is being implicitly taught therein, this theme certainly remains undeveloped. -
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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM: The enigma of the righteous being in Sheol (Hades) along with the wicked, was tentatively resolved during the intertestamental period by compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. In Jesus' day, the part of Hades where the righteous were detained was commonly referred to by the Pharisees as Abraham's Bosom. This was a place of rest and banqueting where the souls of the righteous enjoyed "intimate fellowship with the father of the race (Abraham), who is still alive and blessed in death."
PLACE OF TORMENT: The idea of "torment" being associated with Hades was also clearly a part of the Pharisaic tradition of Jesus' day. This traditional belief which similarly developed during the intertestamental period is attested to and quite graphically elaborated on in much of the the religious folklore prevalent at the time.
A point worthy of note here, is that when Jesus used the terms "Abraham's Bosom", and "Torment" in reference to Hades, he was employing terms and concepts not rooted in scripture, but in rabbinical tradition. He was using terms fully comprehended by the Pharisees and clearly endorsed by their teachings about the afterlife. And equally important, Abraham's Bosom, and Torment were terms the Pharisees used regularly to justify their total neglect of the poor.
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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
Re: souls under the alter Rev.6:9
Very difficult to see bodiless souls, mortal or otherwise. This is obviously a vision describing the suffering church. The martyr's cry is akin to the blood of Able crying out for justice.(Gen.4:10)
Ellicott's commentary on this verse reads as follows
The word “souls” has been made a resting-place for an argument respecting the intermediate state. There is no ground for this: it is quite beside the object of the seal, which simply exhibits the sufferings of Christ’s people as the necessary accompaniment of the progress of the gospel. These sufferings are because of the Word of God and the testimony which they held. It was because of the Word of God and the testimony that the sacred seer himself suffered (Revelation 1:9). The words here remind us that the same issue which St. John fought, the suffering ones of after ages would be fighting. Their witness and his was the God-man; to this testimony they clung. They were not ashamed of Christ, or of His words, and they suffered for their courage and fidelity.
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Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@ Vienne
Excellent response!
Even Martha knew when she would see her brother again.
"I know I will see him in Abraham's Bosom when I die", she said,
"Go to the top of the class Martha!", the Pharisees responded.
@Sea Breeze
<< Ez. 18:4 is correct. "The soul that is sinning will be separated from its body." (The New SeaBreeze Translation>>
(ASV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(DRB) Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.
(GNB) The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.
(KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(KJV+) Behold,H2005 allH3605 soulsH5315 are mine; as the soulH5315 of the father,H1 so also the soulH5315 of the sonH1121 is mine: the soulH5315 that sinneth,H2398 itH1931 shall die.H4191
(KJVA) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(LITV) Behold, they are all My souls. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.
(MKJV) Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.
(YLT) Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son—they are Mine, The soul that is sinning—it doth die.