Posts by Vanderhoven7

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Duran,

I prefaced my response by saying, let's break this down a little. Many don't appreciate long posts. And since I believe I have the truth on Matthew 24, I tend to stick to Matthew 24, it’s parallel texts and include the book of Daniel because it is referred to in Olivet discourse itself.

So let's look at Matthew 24:30 now.

30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (See Jer.21:5 Is.19:1)

Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.

AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds" necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not read that thought into the text.

Is. 19:1 states "See the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of judgment.

The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view. They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power. This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty. That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27 reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate. Titus was merely his instrument.

Seems to me that Jesus word to the high priest was fulfilled in AD 70 as well.

Matthew 26:64 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

LOL! You don't want to explain Rev and Thess because you know what they show.

Assume all you want Duran.

If you think the GT fulfillment was limited to the destruction of the temple, then when did this part get fulfilled:

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

Let Marcellus Kik break this down a little.

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN:

Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated. God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer shine for Israel of the flesh.

QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?

WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of Idumea, Isaiah writes: “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.”

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of such an insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt incorporates similar vivid language. “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used tobdescribe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel? Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL. Dan.7:13 says: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says: “And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64 Mat.16:28)

No more temple, not one stone on another, no more priesthood, no more sacrifice, their house left to them desolate. They rejected their Messiah.

33

Governing Body Memes

by jw07 in

are there any sites with collections of governing body memes?

i see memes as a very effective way of getting the truth about the truth across without lengthy debate.

an effective meme is point and shoot since comedy holds the attention, jolts logic, is memorable, and is more likely to be viral.. something like this: http://t.qkme.me/3674l2.jpg.

Vanderhoven7

Anthony Morris III raising his hand at a recent Watchtower Study.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

Actually Duran, I don't have to explain anything about Revelation or Thessalonians. My claim is that the GT of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is fait accompli to which Luke 21:20,24 attests. Now if you can disprove this claim, or support a different future interpretation, I am all ears.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

@Duran,

Before I answer your questions, can you explain when and how the following will transpire?

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. ....They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations (Luke 21:20, 24 ESV)

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, exactly.

Times of the Gentiles:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20, 24)

The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it.

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The Greek for "trodden" is pat-eh'-o (#3961 in Strong's Concordance), and it means "to trample down underfoot". The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

Well, it looks like I gave some wrong impressions due to incorrect wording. Let me straighten that out.

What I intended was...

Jews who survived Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD were enslaved by the Romans and dispersed among the nations. Jews today (no doubt including some of their descendants) are still found in many nations.

The enslavement and dispersion of Jews among the nations in 70 AD was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy found in Luke 21:20-24 which reads.

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

This prophecy was fulfilled and is not slated to happen again.

Conclusion: The Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is prophecy fulfilled, i.e., over and done with.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

@ Duran

What/when is the so-called 'parousia'?

Only God knows that. Our job is to be ready for the second coming of the Son.

Who are enslaved currently among the nations that can't return back to Israel now if they wanted to?

Who said anything about what Jew are experiencing today? I said the surviving Jews, when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, were dispersed as slaves among the nations. Jews are all over the world today and only granted a country in 1948 which has nothing to do with Matthew 24 or Luke 21:21-22. A similar enslavement and disbursement among the nations is not scheduled to happen again after the parousia.

Has Joel ever been fulfilled? Joel 2:17;3:1,2

Yes. In the events leading to and including those occurring in 70 AD. Acts 2:16-21

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

Vidqun

The context of the GT leads to the destruction of the temple and the subsequent dispersal of the survivors.

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22, 24 ESV)

This is exactly what happened to the survivors of the great tribulation. They were to be enslaved and dispersed among the nations where they have been for the last 1900+ years. This is not scheduled to happen again at or after the parousia.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Vanderhoven7

@Vidqun

Context is everything

Matthew24:21. FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.

The word tribulation means calamity or suffering. Lu.21:24 specifies the nature of this suffering. Josephus uses almost the very words of the Saviour.

"All the calamities says he, which
had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world, were but small in comparison to those suffered by the Jews. (Jewish Wars, b.i. preface, p.4)

The carnage of the siege, which lasted five months, was horrible beyond belief. Thousands died of starvation. When the Romans finally broke into the city, the sight of so many corpses shocked even hardened soldiers. The slaughter of the city’s citizens was so terrible that fires were extinguished by the profusion of blood" (Josephus, Wars 6.8.5).

Josephus records that 1,100,000 Jews were killed in Jerusalem, and that some 97,000 others were taken as slaves into captivity. It has been estimated that some 1,337,490 Jews in Jerusalem (and in the regions adjacent to Judaea) died — by famine, by the sword, by burning, and by crucifixion (Wars 6.9.3-4).

Some scholars believe that even these figures are too conservative. In fact, Josephus himself expressed the view that the suffering of this holocaust exceeded anything known to man previously (Wars, Preface, 4; 9.4).

This was the worst catastrophe Jerusalem and the Jewish faith would ever experience. To this day, they are without the law, priesthood, temple, sacrifice and their Messiah.