Posts by Vanderhoven7

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Leolaia,

Hey, I like your style despite the fog index. :o)

<<Both the Essenes and the Pharisees believed in postmortem punishment and rewards; this wasn't a belief peculiar to the Pharisees.>>

OK. (but irrelevant since Jesus was not dealing with the Essenes in this passage so.... :o)

<<Jesus himself taught "extra-biblical" apocalyptic eschatology>>

OK. (but He was the Son of God so that grants Him some priveleges...after all :o)

<<Jesus is not depicted as simply using "extra-biblical" eschatology against Pharisees but he used notions not found in the OT with his own disciples.>>

That's water off the ducks back since I don't believe for a moment that Jesus was correcting their extra-biblical eschatology. And remember, this was not an eschatology that Jesus or the scriptures invented. He was playing into the hand that was dealt and adopted by the Pharisees during the intertestamental period.

<<The polemic against the Pharisees in the synoptic gospels is usually aimed at their hypocritical actions and not at what they teach (e.g. "The Pharisees sit in Moses' seat so you must obey them and do...>>

True...and this case is no different. But that did not stop Jesus from condemning and ridiculing their traditions (not supported by Moses); traditions that in their minds at least, justified ignoring the poor or dishonouring parents etc.

<<But even if they did promise that the poor would receive their blessings after death or in the resurrection, they did not construe themselves as having "bad later".>>

Exactly! That is the punch of this parody. ..... Unfortunately I don't have time to finish this...I have an art lesson to teach this afternoon. But please wait until I get back to you and finish up. I don't like to leave loose ends.

Your Too Busy Friend in Christ,

Vander

P.S. BTW I'm preaching on Luke 7:36-50 on the 17th. Got any insights?

44

Dearest Tec... re the Rich Man and Lazarus..

by AGuest in

jw
friends

the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!.

thank you for your kind patience.

his request to have lazarus dip the "tip" of his finger in "water" and "cool" his "tongue," tells us: there is no water in the world of the dead.

Vanderhoven7

The Pharisees explained to the unrighteous that they could not in good conscience lift a finger to counter God's judgment on sinners in this life; the wide gap between them and the unrighteous was created by God Himself for a reason. Even though they might desperately want to help, they were constrained from doing so by the Almighty's justice. If sinners did not suffer sufficiently in this life, they would have to do so in the next. So, in fact, the Pharisees were justified before men, thinking only of the sinner's eternal good. How gracious were the Pharisees.

As Abraham confirms in Jesus' story; "Remember what you taught Son.... bad now, good later...well now the roles are reversed."

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Leolaia,

Thank you for sharing your research. Excellent and well presented.

If there is a weakness though, it would be in the moral you suggest is being taught through this account.

You said:

<<It is clear that the parable is not critical of the eschatology it espouses, nor uses it purely in a figurative sense, but that the eschatology is presupposed in order to describe the rich as having their comeuppance. The moral it presents to the rich is that they must change their ways or they will have their roles reversed after death. >>

It seems to me that there are rich people that love the Lord and will be with Abraham in the afterlife. I would say that neither wealth nor poverty is an indication of ones love for or approval of God. Abraham, Job, Joseph, David etc. were all very rich and influential people. Certainly their comeuppance will not resemble that of the Rich Man in this account. And how about people like you and me? Are we financially not much better off and eat better than 90 percent of the worlds inhabitants? Conversely, poverty and sickness are no guarantee of holiness or approval from above either.

Poverty and sickness were looked upon as a sign of sin and judgment by the Pharisees. But, the Pharisees at least gave hope to the destitute, teaching that they, accepting God's judgments, would find themselves at death, in a very literal (but extra-biblical) place they referred to as, "Abraham's Bosom". So Jesus put the destitute Lazarus right where the Pharisees assigned him in the afterlife. In effect then, Jesus was, like you, teaching Pharisaic doctrine. "Bad now, good later".

Something wrong with this picture - no?

Vander

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Thanks PS,

That's a lot of reading fella.

Perhaps you could summarize for us the intertestemental (i.e. extra-biblical) as well as pagan (Greek, Babylonian etc.) origins of torment in Sheol/Hades. :o)

Vander

44

Dearest Tec... re the Rich Man and Lazarus..

by AGuest in

jw
friends

the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!.

thank you for your kind patience.

his request to have lazarus dip the "tip" of his finger in "water" and "cool" his "tongue," tells us: there is no water in the world of the dead.

Vanderhoven7

<<I agree, the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable but an account. I made the point in a similar thread that no parable contains the name of actual characters. To make this account allegorical makes not only Abraham, Lazarus but also Hades, the "place of torment" fictional.>>

Exactly. The account is not a parable. It was understood literally. But it does not represent "historical narration". Unfortunately, as much as many would like to see the rich and blessed in this life tormented in the next, the literary form is a type of satire called. "parody".

The name Lazarus is significant to the story because it's meaning is exactly what the Pharisees and other teachers of the law would say to the oppressed in denying them assistance of any kind. Look the name up, to see how the religious elite passed the buck. :o)

Vander

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi PS,

That depended on who their authority was, the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Those who held to Pharisaic doctrine tended to believe the horror stories about the afterlife.

But you haven't addressed where did the horror stories came from in the first place. Before developing a line of reasoning, perhaps you could take a stab at my three questions.

Vander

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

OK Everybody,

So I don't believe people are suffering in Hades, tongues burning, conversations going on between people on the good side and bad side of hell as well pitiful screams and pleas for help pouring over the chasm....just as I don't believe God will commend covetous swindlers who justify their actions before men.

But, even if we allow that the literary form of this account is historical narration, we have no idea how long the suffering in Hades lasts. Nor can we assume that this is the fate (however temporary) of every unbeliever during the intermediate state. We must add to the word of God, our traditions if we determine and preach beyond this account. Then we become like the JWs who happily add their traditions to the word of God.

And, Oh some can get so upset, and even deny you are a Christian if you don't belive in torment as the punishment for human sin.

Many have become as self-righteous as the JWs about non-critical beliefs...as if belief in eternal torment was a measure of a man's relationship and love for Jesus Christ.

But there I go a-ramblin

Vander

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Chalam,

Before you denegrate anything but a surface reading of Luke 16 - here are a few simple (non-complicated) questions for you to consider about this account.

1. Why did Jesus preach hellfire to the hellfire preachers? Was He trying to scare the scarers?

2. Where did the term "Abraham's Bosom", the concept of angels dragging people off to to the bad side of Hades and there being a wide gulf between two sections of Hades, originate if not found in the entire Old Testament? Was this a Bible story or a Pharisaic story Jesus was telling?

And here's the clincher:

3. How did the Pharisees and other teachers of the law maintain the appearance of holiness (justify themselves before men...see verse 15) without having to lift a single finger to help the destitute? (In fact...their story was, that if they did help the poor, they would be crossing that impassable gulf and would thereby lose their holiness). They actually made void the word of God by their tradition. Since they would not hear the word of God, but onlt their tradions, Jesus entered their tradition with them and turned their theology upside-down. (Oh no, I partially answerd my own question.)

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Georgia,

When we read the story at face value we see Jesus preaching hellfire (Hadesfire) to the Hellfire preachers of the day. He told their story right back to them....but with an important twist. Jesus' story ended with the Pharisees in their own version of hell.

When we read the previous parable (Luke 16) we find God commending a covetous and totally self-serving dishonest steward (Pharisees) and then encouraging everyone else to make friends of the mammon of unrighteous as they did for eternal heavenly approval. Note from their reaction that the Pharisees did not take this story at face value; they knew this satirical parable was told against them and their covetousness.

Vander

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

Vanderhoven7

Hi Stephen,

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.>>

Revelation is a book of symbols...some of which are defined for us. Notice in verse 14, the symbolic lake of fire is defined for us as the second death...in the same fashion as the symbolic dragon is defined for us as the devil a few verses earlier.

Verse 14 then is a symbolic way of expressing that death and Hades will be utterly destroyed or eradicated? It obviously requires de-imaging or decoding of symbols since it cannot be a literal description of what will happen to death and Hades?

- Will death literally be picked up and tossed?

- Will death be flung into a literal lake?

Since these ideas are literally impossible, the "casting" and "the lake of fire" in Rev.20:14 are really images, aren't they? They can be captured by our imaginations, but can anyone say they have any resemblance to what literally will happen to death and Hades?

Vander