i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
<<p.s. I also believe that those that were not allowed by God to "enter" the promised land have been released from the grave and given mortal bodies once again that they might choose Jesus Christ as their saviour in order to show their obedience to God and "enter" into the inheritance of the saints. hence the fighting over the "body" of moses...scripture>>
Now why would you believe that?
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
" If the unrighteous are already screaming in agony along with the rich man, are the souls of martyrs under the alter pleading for greater revenge perhaps? Can we assume then that the lake of fire is hotter than the fire of Hades?"
<<I guess you can assume that because the scriptures say that hell is cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.>>
It seems to me that the souls under the alter calling for justice (like the blood of Able speaking), and the tossing of death (with or without the horse it is riding) are figurative. I don't think the martyrs are looking for the screws to be tightened to elicit louder screams. The lake of fire is the second death; its not the second death is the lake of fire.
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
<<There are a few hints in the scriptures, i.e. Lazarus and the rich man, where Lazarus is in a place of comfort and the rich man is complaining of the heat.(Luke16:23-25)>> Hints, possibilities, theories, maybe. But doctrine only by assumption... i.e. that the rich man fate is that of every unbeliever at death...and that that fate is perpetual until the resurrection of the unjust; assumption being the slippery footing for doctrine that it is. <<Then there are the souls beneath the altar, asking God how long until He has revenge on those who shed their blood. (Rev 6:9,10)>> Seems to be something wrong with this picture if the unrighteous are already screaming in agony along with the rich man. Are the souls of martyrs under the alter pleading for greater revenge perhaps? Can I assume then that the lake of fire is hotter than the fire of Hades? |
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi Chalam,
Wonderful scriptures....thank you.
What do you believe was the point of the transfiguration? What did this vision represent or picture?
Vander
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi PS,
Being a wicked person myself, like everyone else, I would prefer later ;)
Very biblical of you to admit it. :o)
And while we are on the subject of witchcraft...I remember taking a speed reading course at university when the Holy Spirit got my attention and said to my spirit; "Your teacher is a witch". I looked at her. She was rather motherly and attentive...but nothing like the witches I had stereotyped in my head. I wanted to question her but of course, that would be ridiculous to ask out-of-the-blue. Fortunately I happened to be speed-reading an article on voodoo at the time so I raised my hand. I told the teacher what I was reading and asked if voodoo had anything to do with WITCHCRAFT. She responded that of course it didn't and that she should know because she was in fact a witch. I pointed my finger at her and exclaimed, "I thought you were!" The entire class was nonplussed.
She immediately asked me if I thought she was a bad person. I told her that the Bible says that there is none good, no not one. "But me as a person", she pressed, " I'm a "white witch"; you don't think I'm bad do you?" I returned with the fact that the Bible says that the heart is desperately wicked and evil above all things, who can know it?" The questioning stopped right there thank goodness, because I had just run out of human depravity proof texts. :)
People who don't know the Lord, often do not/can't see the gravity of their own condition.
Vander
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi PS,
You can try to twist the story of Saul visiting the "witch" as much as you want by taking parts here and there out of context and putting whatever spin on them you like, it doesn't change the story one bit:
No need to twist; the story is true and historical. Even if evangelical commentators differ as to whether it really was Samuel, I have no problem with the account either way. Temporarily awakening Samuel from sleep is not beyond the realm of God's capability last time I checked.
Why are souls sleeping in the dust of the earth such a threat to your faith?
What does it affect if the wicked are punished later than sooner?
Vander
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi PS,
Wow, contortions worthy of the cirque do soliel !
I thought Debater's points were fair.
"All are alive to Him". But doctrinally speaking, whether they sleep or wake during the intermediate state does not affect their ultimate destiny one iota. So what if the wicked get a moments reprieve while they sleep in the dust. They will get their comeuppance (beating with stripes) at their awakening. So what's the rush? The eternal woodshed can wait - no?
I like the story of John Calvin hoping to save Michael Servetus the pain of execution by fire.... But, what's the big deal about saving him 5 minutes of torture when he believed he was sending Michael off to an eternity of far worse pain? It was nice that He demonstrated some compassion anyway and sought to save him a few minuites of torture before he faced more of the same at death.
Do you think that God may be as compassionate as Calvin? I think so; at least judging from the paucity of evidence in the entire Bible that suggests all nonbelievers who have died since Adam are being and have been tormented in flames for as much as 6000 years running in some cases.
Just a thought.
Vander
Perhaps it's time to take another look at this unique account and get past the traditions of men who draw
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
In context of what Jesus and the apostles state as to the condition of the dead, to then use this parable to postulate wildly against Jesus's own words on the actual condition of the dead is foolish at best.
Yes, I'll go along with that. Hades the Greek word that is found in Luke 16 in appears 11 times in the New Testament. In the KJV, Hades is consistently translated as hell with one exception (I Cor.15:55) where it translates as grave. In the NIV hades is translated once as hell, once as death, twice as grave and twice as depths, while in the remaining 5 instances, it is left untranslated.
All of the following Hades passages are quoted from the NIV in the order they appear in scripture. The word translating Hades is capitalized in every reference. As these Hades passages are read, please note the verses that teach that this is a place of perpetual torment.
1. Mat.11:23 And you Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies?
No you will go down to the DEPTHS.
2. Mat.16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will
build my church, and the gates of HADES will not overcome it.
3. Lu.10:15 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon, at the
judgment than for you. And you Capernaum, will you be lifted up
to the skies? No, you will go down to the DEPTHS. Lu.10:15
4. Lu.16:23 (We have covered this unique text already)
5. Acts 2:26,27 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body will also live in hope. (27) Because you will not abandon
me to the GRAVE, nor will you let your Holy One undergo decay.
6. Acts 2:31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of
Christ, that He was not abandoned to the GRAVE, nor did His body
undergo decay.
7. I Cor.15:55 Where O death is your victory? Where O DEATH is your
sting?
8. Rev.1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive
for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and HADES.
9. Rev.6:8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider
was named Death, and HADES was following close behind him.
They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword,
famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
10. Rev.20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and
HADES gave up the dead that were in them and each person was
judged according to what he had done.
11. Rev.20:14 Then death and HADES were cast into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death. Rev.20:14
POST READING ANALYSIS:
ASIDE FROM TORMENT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE FACTS THAT BECOME
APPARENT ABOUT HADES?
Hades hell equates with Sheol hell. (Acts 2:27 I Cor.15:55)
Like Sheol, Hades is located in a downward direction. Matt.11:23
Hades also is identified as the grave in some passages. Acts 2:26,27
As was the case with Sheol, Hades and death are used somewhat interchangeably. (I Cor.15:55)
There is some very figurative language associated with Hades.
Hades, for example, is described as having gates. Entire towns and cities are metaphorically depicted as being cast down to Hades. Instead of being exalted or lifted up (i.e. honored), they will be cast down (i.e. suffer shame and utter dishonor); especially towns like Capernaum, where Jesus often preached and honored with and by His presence.
Hades, like Sheol, is personified.
Both Hades and death are personified as riders on horseback. (Rev.6:8) These twin riders are destined to be cast into the lake of fire at the last judgment. (Rev.20:14)
Hades, like Sheol, is not eternal.
No one will spend eternity in Hades hell.
Hades is emptied of people before it is discarded. (Rev.20:13, 14)
The righteous go to Hades; David goes to Hades, but he will not be abandoned there; nor will Christ suffer decay there. (Acts 2:26,27)
MOST IMPORTANT: Jesus holds the (metaphorical?) keys to unlock Hades gates and release its prisoners. Perhaps Revelation 20:14 is describing Christ's final figurative plaguing of mankind's last enemies - where death and Hades are ultimately and eternally consigned to the lake of fire. Death then will never again have opportunity to ride out with Hades against mankind.
DO ANY OF THE SCRIPTURES REVIEWED SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT
HADES IS A PLACE WHERE HUMAN SOULS EXPERIENCE EITHER ETERNAL,
OR TEMPORARY LITERAL TORMENT?
CONCLUSION: After reviewing 10 of 11 Hades passages, I think it fair to say that, although there is powerful imagery associated with Hades, none of this imagery distinguishes Hades as a place of eternal or even temporary literal torment.
So indeed, the usage of Hades in Luke 16 is unique.
Vander
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi Leolaia,
Just a comment on context before finishing up my response to your last.
The Rich Man and Lazarus is the last in a series of 5 stories Jesus told consecutively to a mixed audience consisting of his disciples, various respected religious leaders, as well as publicans and sinners. (Luke 15:1) The first 3 stories, the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost/prodical son, were definitely parables designed to provide comfort for the oppressed common people in the audience who needed to hear that God was seeking them and rejoicing over their movement toward repentance. The remaining 2 stories on the other hand, were obviously designed to bring discomfort to the religious leaders; the narrative of the dishonest steward, and the account currently under consideration.
<<the story is not concerned with faithful men of former generations who received their wealth from God as a blessing. The story is concerned with the rich of the present generation (a "wicked and perverse generation"...)>>
Neither wealth, nor poverty by themselves, are an indication of morality in any generation. This story, and particulary Abraham's paternaliastic response to the Rich Man's plea is devoid of moral content. Abraham merely plays the role of the Pharisees.
You know I see this account as "parody" designed to undermine Pharisaic authority. Do you see the literary form as "parable" or "historical narration"?
In Christ,
Vander
i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.
1. who are the five brothers?.
2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?
Hi Everyone,
Pehaps I should elaborate here to answer what I believe is a key question.
HOW DID THE PHARISEES AND OTHER TEACHERS OF THE LAW USE THEIR TRADITIONAL TEACHINGS TO JUSTIFY THE TOTAL ABDICATION OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE POOR (I.E. THEIR REFUSAL TO EVEN "LIFT A FINGER" TO ALLEVIATE THEIR BURDENS Lu. 11:46)? PERHAPS WE CAN GET SOME INSIGHT BY SPENDING A FEW MOMENTS LOOKING AT THE STORY ITSELF:
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS is a classic "reversal of fortune" story. Before death, the rich man was well off while Lazarus was in physical torments. But after death, it's Lazarus who is well off and the rich man is experiencing torment. Before death, Lazarus was begging crumbs from the rich man; now the rich man is begging droplets of relief from Lazarus.
THE KEY QUESTION: Why were their fortunes reversed? In other words, why did Lazarus end up in Abrahamic bliss and the rich man in torments?
What reason does the text give for the reversal in their fortunes? Let's examine verse 25, the punch line of this parody . You will recall that the rich man had just made a desperate plea for Lazarus to "lift a finger" to help relieve his misery. Jesus has a somewhat dispassionate Abraham respond to this appeal by dispensing some rather outrageous logic that completely ignores the moral dimension of either man's life.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy life
time receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil
things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Abraham paternalistically justifies the rich man's intolerable situation by reminding him of a simple rule of parity. To paraphrase here, Abraham says, "Don't you remember Son; it's those who experience bad things in this life that can expect good things in the next...". Now where in the world did such logic originate? Actually, the logic, originated with the Pharisees themselves. Jesus was merely having Abraham parrot back to the rich man, the Pharisee's own unhelpful counsel to the poor and tormented. Visualize for a moment, a Pharisee giving the following advice to a destitute widow who has just approached him for assistance.
Daughter, remember God punishes to the 3rd and 4th generation;
Your present suffering is obviously His judgment. We would really
like to help, but, as you know, it is God who has fixed this wide
gulf of disparity between us - so that those who would traverse
that gulf and ease your torment, even a little, only find themselves
contravening His judgment. Lazarus(God is your help) my daughter!
If we help to alleviate your torment now, you will only experience
much worse later. But if you faithfully bear His judgment for your
sins and those of your fathers, and endure bad things in this life, you
will surely enjoy the comforts of Abraham's Bosom in the hereafter.
JESUS HAD PIQUED THE PHARISEES INTEREST AS HE INTRODUCED THE STORY OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN. He talked about Lazarus' poverty and struggles, and in death, he had him carried off to Abraham's Bosom. You can imagine the Pharisees nodding their heads in agreement here. But what the Pharisees were not expecting, was having their own concept of "redemptive suffering" reversed and extended to its logical conclusion. "Bad now - Good later", then becomes, "Good now - Bad later". [Savor for one moment, the poetic justice of having Abraham, the ultimate Patriarch and religious authority, rationalizing the Pharisee's exclusion from the kingdom of God, by turning their own dispassionate logic back on them.] The twist in the rich man's fate sends the Pharisees reeling, and more so as they hear laughter swelling up from the crowd who were all too familiar with the Pharisee's self-justifying rhetoric.
The Rich Man and Lazarus then is a masterful expose of the Pharisees. Through satire, Jesus effectively strips the Pharisees of any pretence of righteousness and thoroughly discredits their justification for ignoring the poor in Israel. They are now left no cloak for their sins or their hardhearted refusal to repent. Their refusal to repent despite all God's blessings, instructions and possible miracles is the real point of this passage. And true to Abraham's prediction (verse 31), only weeks later, after Jesus actually raised one named Lazarus, the Pharisees simply react with vehement determination to put both Jesus and Lazarus to death.
(Jn.11:47, 53)
BY WAY OF SUMMARY: When we examine Luke 16:19-31 in the light of history, we note a rather suspicious resemblance between Jesus’ story of The Rich Man and Lazarus , and the traditional teachings of the Pharisees. But Jesus was not setting out to confirm Pharisaic beliefs about the afterlife. True, he told their story; the same story they had told a thousand times before, but with one important difference; a rather ironic twist you might say, that sees the Rich Man waking up in torment in Hades and being denied the slightest assistance by application of the same logic whereby he had regularly denied the poor and destitute. It would not take much imagination to visualize the headlines in the Jerusalem Chronicle the morning after Jesus told His version of their story, humorously conveying how the Lord had turned the tables on the Pharisees in the afterlife.
Satire is serious business. It is most effectively employed when reason is not welcome. Satire embraces irony, parody, condemnation and even ridicule. Because it is often biting, it should be used carefully; perhaps as a last resort. Satire entertains the ridiculous as a possibility - to highlight the incongruities of immoral or irrational positions. Satire however, is slippery footing for doctrine.
Vander
