Going door to door was never recommended in scripture and there is no real evidence that the apostles ever went door to door down the street before coffee and donuts at Friendly's.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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Knocking on Doors vs. Televangelism
by Band on the Run ini was watching a tv show that made me think about why the witnesses insist on door-to-door work "in this age of mass communication," to quote jesus christ superstar.
did they not have a radio station at one time?
i remember hearing about it and about the dj becoming too popular so he was axed.
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WT lashes out on Apostates
by mankkeli inthis is taken fro wt 1983 4/1.
"some who once served as jehovahs witnesses have rejected various scriptural views based on the teachings of jesus christ and his apostles.
for instance, they insist that we are not living in the last days, despite overwhelming evidence that we are.
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Vanderhoven7
booked
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The seven trumpet blasts of Revelation & the Millions campaign.
by transhuman68 inone of the jehovahs witness doctrines that many of us have had trouble believing is that the seven angels trumpet blasts described in revelation applied to events that occurred in the 1920s at seven assemblies held around the world at the time when judge rutherford was the president of the watchtower society.. the revelation climax book (1988) contains this summary on page 173:.
highlights of jehovah's trumpetlike judgment proclamations.
1922 cedar point, ohio: a challenge to christendom's leaders in religion, politics, and big business to justify their failure to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness.
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Vanderhoven7
I just got this reply from a JW on the subject
171759.5 in reply to 171759.4 Hi Vander
>> In your 1988 Revelation Climax book, page 25 it presents these two witnesses spoken about in Revelation 11 as members of the WTO leadership including J. F. Rutherford...Is this still the current understanding of your org.? <<
Yes.
" ... In the Revelation to John, those who are spoken of by God as “my two witnesses” are spiritual Israelites, dedicated, baptized followers of the Messiah whom John followed, namely, Jesus Christ. As worshipers of Jehovah of armies, as it were, in the courtyard of his spiritual temple, they were trampled underfoot by the Gentile nations “for forty-two months.” This was during World War I of the years 1914-1918. During that time these symbolic “two witnesses” prophesied in sackcloth, in the sense that the message they publicly proclaimed was a mournful one. It foretold the coming destruction, the violent death, of all the Gentile nations now that the “times of the Gentiles” had ended in early fall of the year 1914. (Luke 21:24) Like gloomy-looking prophets, dressed in the mournful garb of sackcloth, they prophesied for one thousand two hundred and sixty days during the first world war. (Revelation 11:1-3) What happened to them then, as foreseen by the apostle John? “And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled.”—Revelation 11:7, 8. That wild beast out of the abyss is later shown to symbolize the world organization of politics now millenniums old. In the spring of the year 1918, before World War I was over, this beastly political organization took advantage of war conditions to ban literature on the Bible as used by the “two witnesses” class and imprisoned dedicated Christians who were foremost in publishing it. Thus the free public work of the symbolic “two witnesses” was killed; and as far as public witnessing for Jehovah’s theocratic government is concerned, they were like dead bodies lying in the streets of Christendom, exposed to shame and religious persecution...."much Christian love
1pennyone
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The seven trumpet blasts of Revelation & the Millions campaign.
by transhuman68 inone of the jehovahs witness doctrines that many of us have had trouble believing is that the seven angels trumpet blasts described in revelation applied to events that occurred in the 1920s at seven assemblies held around the world at the time when judge rutherford was the president of the watchtower society.. the revelation climax book (1988) contains this summary on page 173:.
highlights of jehovah's trumpetlike judgment proclamations.
1922 cedar point, ohio: a challenge to christendom's leaders in religion, politics, and big business to justify their failure to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness.
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Vanderhoven7
Exactly...what hogwash!
The Two Witnesses
10 Even while being trampled on, these
loyal ones do not cease to be Jehovah’s faithful
witnesses. Hence, the prophecy continues:
“‘And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy
a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed
in sackcloth.’ These are symbolized by the two olive
trees and the two lampstands and are standing
before the Lord of the earth.”—Revelation 11:3, 4.
11 These faithful anointed Christians
needed the quality of endurance, for they
had to prophesy “in sackcloth.” What did
this mean? In Bible times sackcloth often
symbolized mourning. Wearing it was a
sign that the person had been brought low
in sorrow or distress. (Genesis 37:34; Job
16:15, 16; Ezekiel 27:31) Sackcloth was associated
with the mournful messages of
doom or grief that God’s prophets had to
proclaim. (Isaiah 3:8, 24-26; Jeremiah 48:37;
49:3) The wearing of sackcloth could indicate
humility or repentance in view of divine
warning. (Jonah 3:5) The sackcloth
worn by the two witnesses appears to indicate
their humble endurance in announcing
Jehovah’s judgments. They were witnesses
proclaiming his day of vengeance
that would bring mourning also to the nations.—
Deuteronomy 32:41-43.
12 The John class had to preach this message
for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days,
or 42 months, the same length of time that
the holy city was to be trampled underfoot.
This period seems to be literal, since it is
expressed in two different ways, first in
months and then in days. Additionally, at
the beginning of the Lord’s day, there was
a marked period of three and a half years
when the hard experiences of God’s people
matched the events prophesied here—start-
10. What are Jehovah’s faithful witnesses to do
while being trampled on?
11. What did it mean for the faithful anointed Christians
to prophesy “in sackcloth”?
12. Why does the time period during which the
holy city was to be trampled underfoot seem to be
literal?
ing in December 1914 and continuing to
June 1918. (Revelation 1:10) They preached
a “sackcloth” message concerning Jehovah’s
judgment of Christendom and the world.
13 The fact that they were symbolized by
two witnesses confirms to us that their
message was accurate and well founded.
(Compare Deuteronomy 17:6; John 8:17, 18.)
John calls them “the two olive trees and
the two lampstands,” saying that they “are
standing before the Lord of the earth.” This
is an evident reference to the prophecy
of Zechariah, who saw a seven-branched
lampstand and two olive trees. The olive
trees were said to picture “the two anointed
ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and
High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the
Lord of the whole earth.”—Zechariah 4:
1-3, 14.
14 Zechariah lived in a time of rebuilding,
and his vision of the two olive trees
meant that Zerubbabel and Joshua would
be blessed with Jehovah’s spirit in strengthening
the people for the work. The vision
of the lampstand reminded Zechariah not
to ‘despise the day of small things’ because
Jehovah’s purposes would be carried out
—“‘not by a military force, nor by power,
but by my spirit,’ Jehovah of armies
has said.” (Zechariah 4:6, 10; 8:9) The small
band of Christians persistently carrying the
light of truth to mankind during the first
world war would similarly be used in a rebuilding
work. They too would be a source
of encouragement and, few as they were,
would learn to rely on Jehovah’s strength,
not despising the day of small beginnings.
13. (a) What is denoted by the fact that the anointed
Christians were symbolized by two witnesses?
(b) What prophecy of Zechariah is brought to mind
by John’s calling the two witnesses “the two olive
trees and the two lampstands”?
14. (a) What was indicated by Zechariah’s vision of
the two olive trees? and the lampstand? (b) What
would the anointed Christians experience during
the first world war?
164 REVELATION CLIMAX15 The fact that they were described as two
witnesses also reminds us of the transfiguration.
In that vision, three of Jesus’ apostles
saw him in Kingdom glory, accompanied by
Moses and Elijah. This foreshadowed Jesus’
sitting down on his glorious throne in 1914
to accomplish a work prefigured by those
two prophets. (Matthew 17:1-3) Fittingly, the
two witnesses are now seen to perform signs
reminiscent of those of Moses and Elijah. For
example, John says of them: “And if anyone
wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their
mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone
should want to harm them, in this manner he must
be killed. These have the authority to shut up heaven
that no rain should fall during the days of their
prophesying.”—Revelation 11:5, 6a.15. (a) The fact that the anointed Christians were
described as two witnesses also reminds us of what?
Explain. (b) What kind of signs are the two witnesses
authorized to perform?
16 This reminds us of the time when Moses’
authority was challenged in Israel. That
prophet uttered fiery words of judgment,
and Jehovah destroyed the rebels, consuming
250 of them by literal fire from heaven.
(Numbers 16:1-7, 28-35) Similarly, Christendom’s
leaders defied the Bible Students, saying
that these had never graduated from
theological colleges. But God’s witnesses
had higher credentials as ministers: those
meek persons who heeded their Scriptural
message. (2 Corinthians 3:2, 3) In 1917
the Bible Students published The Finished
Mystery, a powerful commentary on Revelation
and Ezekiel. This was followed by
the distribution of 10,000,000 copies of the
four-page tract The Bible Students Monthly
with the feature article entitled “The Fall
of Babylon—Why Christendom Must Now
Suffer—the Final Outcome.” In the United
States, the irate clergy used the war hysteria
as an excuse to get the book banned.
In other countries the book was censored.
Nevertheless, God’s servants kept fighting
16. (a) How does the sign involving fire remind us
of the time when Moses’ authority was challenged
in Israel? (b) How did Christendom’s clergy defy the
Bible Students and stir up trouble for them during
the first world war, and how did these fight back?
The rebuilding work by Zerubbabel and Joshua
indicated that in the Lord’s day small beginnings
would be followed by great increase among Jehovah’s
Witnesses. Facilities such as the ones shown above,
which are in Brooklyn, NewYork, have had to be
greatly expanded in order to help meet their needs
REVIVING THE TWO WITNESSES 165back with fiery issues of the four-page tract
entitled Kingdom News. As the Lord’s day
proceeded, other publications would make
clear Christendom’s spiritually defunct condition.—
Compare Jeremiah 5:14.
17 What of Elijah? In the days of the kings
of Israel, this prophet proclaimed a drought
as an expression of Jehovah’s indignation
on the Baal-worshipping Israelites. It lasted
three and a half years. (1 Kings 17:1; 18:
41-45; Luke 4:25; James 5:17) Later, when
unfaithful King Ahaziah sent soldiers to
17. (a) What events in the days of Elijah involved a
drought and fire? (b) How did fire issue forth from
the mouths of the two witnesses, and what drought
was involved?
force Elijah to come into his royal presence,
the prophet called down fire from heaven
to consume the soldiers. Only when a military
commander showed proper respect
for his position as a prophet did Elijah
consent to accompany him to the king.
(2 Kings 1:5-16) Likewise, between 1914 and
1918, the anointed remnant boldly drew attention
to the spiritual drought in Christendom
and warned of fiery judgment at “the
coming of the great and fear-inspiring day
of Jehovah.”—Malachi 4:1, 5; Amos 8:11.
18 John goes on to say of the two witnesses:
“And they have authority over the waters to turn
them into blood and to strike the earth with every
sort of plague as often as they wish.” (Revelation 11:
6b) In order to persuade Pharaoh to let Israel
go free, Jehovah used Moses in striking op-
18. (a) What authority is given the two witnesses,
and how was this similar to that given Moses?
(b) How did the two witnesses expose Christendom?
Fiery judgment messages
proclaimed by the two
witnesses were foreshadowed
by the prophetic work of
Moses and Elijah
166 REVELATION CLIMAXpressive Egypt with plagues, including the
turning of water into blood. Centuries later,
the Philistine enemies of Israel well remembered
Jehovah’s acts against Egypt, causing
them to cry: “Who will save us from the
hand of this majestic God? This is the God
that was the smiter of Egypt with every sort
of slaughter [“plague,” Revised Standard Version]
in the wilderness.” (1 Samuel 4:8; Psalm
105:29) Moses portrayed Jesus, who had authority
to pronounce God’s judgments on
the religious leaders of his day. (Matthew 23:
13; 28:18; Acts 3:22) And during the first
world war Christ’s brothers, the two witnesses,
exposed the death-dealing quality of “the
waters” that Christendom was serving to her
flocks.
The Two Witnesses Are Killed
19 So severe was this plague on Christendom
that after the two witnesses had prophesied
for 42 months in sackcloth, Christendom
used her worldly influence to have
them ‘killed.’ John writes: “And when they have
finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends
out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer
them and kill them. And their corpses will be
on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual
sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord
was also impaled. And those of the peoples and tribes
and tongues and nations will look at their corpses
19. According to the Revelation account, what takes
place when the two witnesses finish their witnessing?
for three and a half days, and they do not let their
corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the
earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and
they will send gifts to one another, because these two
prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.”
—Revelation 11:7-10.
20 This is the first of 37 references in Revelation
to a wild beast. In due course we
will examine this and other beasts in detail.
Suffice it to say for now that “the wild beast
that ascends out of the abyss” is of Satan’s
design, a living political system of things.
—Compare Revelation 13:1; Daniel 7:2, 3, 17.
21 From 1914 to 1918 the nations were
occupied with the first world war. Nationalistic
feelings ran high, and in the
spring of 1918, the religious enemies of
the two witnesses took advantage of the
situation. They maneuvered the State’s legal
apparatus so that responsible ministers
of the Bible Students were imprisoned on
The “abyss” (Greek, abys·sos; Hebrew, tehohm) refers
symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2.) In
a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. The
Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” (Psalm 71:
20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) Thus, “the wild beast that ascends out
of the abyss” can be identified with the “wild beast ascending
out of the sea.”—Revelation 11:7; 13:1.
20. What is “the wild beast that ascends out of the
abyss”?
21. (a) How did the religious enemies of the two
witnesses take advantage of the war situation?
(b) The fact that the corpses of the two witnesses
were left unburied indicated what? (c) How is the
time period of three and a half days to be viewed?
(See footnote.)
REVIVING THE TWO WITNESSES 167false charges of sedition. Faithful coworkers
were stunned. Kingdom activity almost
ceased. It was as though the preaching
work were dead. In Bible times it was a
terrible indignity not to be interred in a
memorial tomb. (Psalm 79:1-3; 1 Kings 13:
21, 22) Therefore, great reproach would attach
to leaving the two witnesses unburied.
In the hot Palestinian climate, a corpse in
the open street would really start to smell
after three and a half literal days. (Compare
John 11:39.) This detail in the prophecy
thus indicates the shame that the two
witnesses had to endure. Those mentioned
above who were imprisoned were even denied
bail while their cases were on appeal.
They were exposed publicly long enough
Notice that in examining the experiences of God’s people
at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent
a literal three and a half years, the three and a half
days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. Likely,
the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned
twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only
a short period compared with the actual three and a half
years of activity that precede it.
to become a stench to the inhabitants of
“the great city.” But what was this “great
city”?
22 John gives us some clues. He says that
Jesus was impaled there. So we immediately
think of Jerusalem. But he also says that the
great city is called Sodom and Egypt. Well,
literal Jerusalem was once called Sodom because
of her unclean practices. (Isaiah 1:
8-10; compare Ezekiel 16:49, 53-58.) And
Egypt, the first world power, sometimes appears
as a picture of this world system of
things. (Isaiah 19:1, 19; Joel 3:19) Hence, this
great city pictures a defiled “Jerusalem” that
claims to worship God but that has become
unclean and sinful, like Sodom, and a part
of this satanic world system of things, like
Egypt. It pictures Christendom, the modern
equivalent of unfaithful Jerusalem, the organization
whose members had so much
22. (a) What is the great city? (b) How did the public
press join in with the clergy in rejoicing over the
silencing of the two witnesses?168 REVELATION CLIMAX
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is it moral and or rational to teach children and adults that Santa is real?
by mankkeli in1) yes it is moral and rational.
2) yes it is moral.
3) yes it is rational.
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Vanderhoven7
I had a boy in my Sunday school class that told me he kicked his Dad for lying to him about Santa. It was a matter of trust to him. My kid's knew the truth about Santa from square one. We told them they could always trust us to tell them the truth and we followed through. As I see it, God and Santa are so much alike in the mind of a child, that the loss of faith in one can damage the other. In spite of knowing the truth our kids always loved Christmas and joked about what "Santa" brought them.
BTW, as kids, we always had Christmas, because my non-JW Mom put her foot down with my Dad when he was with the Witnesses. I'm thankful for that.
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is it moral and or rational to teach children and adults that Santa is real?
by mankkeli in1) yes it is moral and rational.
2) yes it is moral.
3) yes it is rational.
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Vanderhoven7
Always tell the truth. Our kids knew and know we would never lie to them. If someone else's child asks that question, refer them to their parents.
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There is No Morality Without God
by whereami inaddressing the argument, made by many christians, that with no god there can be no morality.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnu-qbgxmn0.
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Vanderhoven7
Science cannot logically make the leap from what is to what ought to be. Any universal absolute values (so-called) and universal absolute morals developed from them are not objectively the product of a random chance world that exists without any reference to purpose.
Yes people can make up complex moral codes and even consider themselves moral to the extent that they follow them. And others, working with different moral codes, are just as moral when they obey their own opposing moral conclusions. Who is to say, you are immoral for killing your unwanted pre-born baby? Who is to say you are immoral for not loving some imaginary god with all your heart; just other ignorant people with differing values and morals. There are no ultimate rules in the universe, only people who create and or enforce them.
There are no ultimate rules, just as there is no ultimate justice in the universe.
And I quote:
There is no Good, there is no Bad;
- These be the whims of mortal will:
What works me weal that call I "good,"
- What harms and hurts I hold as "ill:'
They change with place, they shift with race;
- And, in the veriest span of Time,
Each Vice has won a Virtue's crown;
- All good was banned as Sin or Crime:
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There is No Morality Without God
by whereami inaddressing the argument, made by many christians, that with no god there can be no morality.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnu-qbgxmn0.
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Vanderhoven7
If we are considering well being of the majority, then absolute biblical morality would prove incredibly beneficial. You know, no STDs, no unwanted pregnancies; no divorce based on infidelity, alcoholism; non-provision.....and the pain and sorrow that go with these things etc.
The problem doesn't seem to be the beneficial nature of much of biblical morality; only that individuals, Atheist or otherwise, don't have the power or desire to live it...much less to obey the first commandment.
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The seven trumpet blasts of Revelation & the Millions campaign.
by transhuman68 inone of the jehovahs witness doctrines that many of us have had trouble believing is that the seven angels trumpet blasts described in revelation applied to events that occurred in the 1920s at seven assemblies held around the world at the time when judge rutherford was the president of the watchtower society.. the revelation climax book (1988) contains this summary on page 173:.
highlights of jehovah's trumpetlike judgment proclamations.
1922 cedar point, ohio: a challenge to christendom's leaders in religion, politics, and big business to justify their failure to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness.
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Vanderhoven7
Any more wierd WTS "provincial" interpretations/interpolations in the Revelation Book?
How about those two witnesses?
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161
There is No Morality Without God
by whereami inaddressing the argument, made by many christians, that with no god there can be no morality.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnu-qbgxmn0.
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Vanderhoven7
<<I just want to repeat my challenge to those who reject morality without god. Please tell me a moral statement that isn't predicated on the well being of conscious creatures.>>
Perhaps you mean self-conscious?....Or are you a vegetarian?
No one is saying that people don't have morals. It's just that there are no such things as absolutes, (beyond personal morality) without God. People without God have no objective standard outside of themselves i.e. their personal biases/preferences to determine the value of anything and to come to moral decisions. To decide that man is the measure of value is somewhat akin to saying the earth is the center of the universe because I live here. To some Atheists, it's perfectly moral to kill an unborn child...for whatever personal reason they have to devalue the person within the womb. .i.e wrong sex, wrong color, inconvenience etc. To others; you have to have a good reason to terminate a life in the womb, but those reasons vary from person to person.