Posts by Vanderhoven7

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

Vanderhoven7

Hmmm..

But if you are right, how come Jesus couldn't figure this out?

10

144000 and the great multitude

by cmaymann in

hellow.

i am studying some material about jehovah’s witness – and i wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth.

can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?.

Vanderhoven7

NOT SURE WHERE THIS STUDY CAME FROM

After describing the enigmatic chorus of 144.000 Israelites, the apostle was shown an equally enigmatic “Great Multitude”:

Revelations 7: 9: “After these, I looked, and behold, there was a great multitude…”

The phrase: “great multitude”, is also found in Revelations 19: 1, where the Great Multitude appears to be up in the skies: “...I heard a loud noise, like that of a great multitude, from the sky”

Revelations 7: 9: “...that nobody was able to count its number…”

In Genesis 13: 16 God tells Abraham that his seed would become so profuse, that “if anyone could count the grains of sand on the earth, then shall your seed also be counted”. So, in the way that nobody could count the grains of sand on earth and the seed of Abraham, in the same way nobody could count the number of the Great Multitude. With this phrase (“that nobody could count”), Revelations is clearly indicating that the Great Multitude is referring to the seed of Abraham.

The “Witnesses” believe that the seed of Abraham numbers a mere 144.000 faithful; this is apparently the “spiritual Israel” that alone will go to heaven. But here we see that not only is the seed of Abraham not so few in number, but innumerable.

According also to Galatians 3: 29: “If you are of Christ, you are of the seed of Abraham, and … heirs”. If –therefore- you are not of Abraham’s seed and heir, you are not of Christ, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Necessarily, the Great Multitude must be the seed of Abraham.

But the following verse also indicates that the heirs are saints and co-inheritors of the heavenly Kingdom, with Jesus Christ: Romans 8: 16,17: “Children and heirs. Heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ”.

The Great Multitude therefore is the innumerable seed of Abraham, which co-inherits the heavenly kingdom with Jesus Christ.

Revelations 7: 9: “...out of every nation and races and tongues…”

“Witnesses” believe that only 144.000 are kings and priests of God. However, if we combine the above verse with Revelations 5: 9,10, we see that “those who were bought from every nation and peoples and tongues” are ”kings and priests”. Unlike the 144.000, who are described in Revelations as being Israelites. (Revelations 7: 4-8).

Revelations 7: 9: “ ...who stood before the throne and the Lamb...”

“Before” signifies “in front of”. God’s throne is in heaven; therefore, the Great Multitude must also be in heaven, if it is standing in front of God’s throne.

The word “before” is not intended metaphorically here, as used (for example) in the expression: “we now stand before God” , given that God is all-seeing. John here is describing a vision. He actually saw them standing in front of God, up there, in heaven. He was not using any metaphor, any figure of speech. But nobody can actually see us standing before God right now, since we said these words metaphorically. However, the verse we are studying begins with: “...I LOOKED, and behold, there was a great multitude...who stood BEFORE the throne…”

Revelations 7 9: “… garbed in white robes…”

Revelations 7: 14: “...they washed and whitened them, in the blood of the Lamb…”

The “lamb” is Christ. In Isaiah 1: 18, we learn that one whitens oneself, when God forgives him his sins. : “Even if your sins are purple in color, they shall become white as the snow, and if they are red like vermilion, they shall become like bleached wool.”

The Great Multitude therefore is the multitude of those who will have been vindicated, through their faith in the sacrificed blood of Christ; and this is what is symbolized, by their pure white robes.

In Revelations 3: 5, it says: “The victor shall wear white garments." But who is a victor?

Revelations 2: 26: “.…the victor and whomsoever preserves my works to the end…”

Revelations 12: 11: “...and they defeated him (the devil) for the sake of the blood of Christ and for the reason of their testimony, and they did not favor their life, even to the death.”

The victor therefore is the one who defeats the devil to the end, remaining faithful to the blood of Christ, even to their death.

By connecting the above passages, it becomes clear that, for the Great Multitude to be wearing white robes, they must have become victors, to the end, to the death. But if the Great Multitude refers to victors, it is also going to receive the heavenly kingdom along with Christ, according to the following passages:

Revelations 2: 27, and 3: 21: “to the victor….. authority over nations”; “..to whomsoever is victorious…. power over the nations”; “whomsoever is victorious, I shall bestow to him to sit with me in my throne…”.

The great multitude therefore, is only a part of the church of the saints, for the kingdom of heaven.

This is also evident in Revelations 22: 14,15, where, in its ancient text, it says the following: “Blessed are the ones who have washed their robes, so that they can…enter through the gates of the city…...outside, are the dogs….and those who love and preserve deceit.”

In Revelations 21: 9,10, we are told that this city is the Church, the bride of Christ; in other words, the body of the Church who were to reign together with Him. Whomsoever is not a member of that church, is compared to a dog. Since, therefore, there is no Christian outside of it, and since the great multitude with their white robes enter into it, then the Church cannot be comprised of only 144.000 people; it is innumerable.

Another problem that the white robes pose in the dogma of the “Watchtower Witnesses” is the following: The “Witnesses” believe that the Great Multitude will be vindicated at the end of the Thousand-Year Kingdom which –according to them- will take place after the “Great Tribulation”.

But, if those of the Great Multitude “wear white robes, having come from the great tribulation”, it would mean that they are already vindicated, BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM! (Revelations 7: 14).

Revelations 7: 13: “…one of the elders….. saying to me: These who are garbed in white robes - who are they, and where have they come from?”

In Revelations 4: 4 and 7: 11, it is stated very clearly, that the 24 elders were standing “around the throne” of God, in heaven.

So, when the elder asked: “where did they come from?” it is positive proof that the Great Multitude CAME to him, there, IN HEAVEN.

Revelations 7: 15: “...and they worshipped Him, day and night, inside His temple.”

How can the Great Multitude be INSIDE the temple of God, if they were not priests?

In ancient Israel, only priests were permitted to enter the temple. Therefore, the Great Multitude is a hieratic (and consequently a heavenly) order, and the priests are not limited to only 144.000.

The Watchtower organization’s reply to the above comment, is the following assertion:

“The temple also has a courtyard. The Great Multitude therefore isn’t inside the temple, but outside, in the courtyard, therefore they don’t necessarily have to be priests!”

But the word “temple” in the Holy Bible ALWAYS SIGNIFIES THE TEMPLE BUILDING ONLY, as is evident in Revelations 1: 2: “the courtyard that is outside the temple you must cast out, and not count it”.

However, because the Watchtower is aware of this problem, it strives deceitfully to conceal it, by mutating (as it does habitually) the text of the Holy Bible in their own translation, and replacing the same verse with the following version: “as for the courtyard, however, which is outside (the sanctum) of the temple, you must leave it out, entirely…”

In total disrespect of the holy text, and in defiance of the warning in Revelation 22: 18, it adds the word: “sanctum”, in order to salvage its exposed dogma.

And where is the temple, inside of which the Great Multitude worship God as priests ?

Revelations 11: 19: “and the Temple of God which is in heaven opened up”. (Comments are redundant here…)

Revelation 7: 15,16: “and the One seated on the throne shall camp over them… and God shall eliminate every tear from their eyes.”

The Great Multitude is referred to with the same words, in the following passage also:

Revelations 21:2-4: “and I saw the renewed holy city of Jerusalem, descending from the sky….as a bride……behold, the tabernacle of God amongst the people, and He shall camp with them…and they shall become His people, and He, the Lord God, shall be with them as their God….and He shall eliminate every tear…”

The careful reader will realize that here, the Great Multitude is included in the tabernacle of God, the Church, which “descends from the sky”.

But even Paul the Apostle Paul came to agree that the Great Multitude are the “sons of God”, and consequently members of the Celestial Jerusalem, in Corinthians II, 6: 16-18: “as God had said, that: I shall inhabit with them, and I shall walk among them and I shall be their God and they shall be my people…and I shall be unto you as a father and you shall be unto Me as sons and daughters..”

The Great Multitude is present in many passages of Revelations, and always as a part of the celestial Jerusalem, the Church. There is not another order for heaven and another for earth, since the Church itself is the same one, that descends from the new heavens to the new earth.

This is exactly what confuses the “Witnesses”. They were not taught the simple, evangelical truth, that the saints do not only live in the “new heavens”, but also on the “new earth”. Hence, there is no need for two orders, but only one: that of the innumerable Church.

10

144000 and the great multitude

by cmaymann in

hellow.

i am studying some material about jehovah’s witness – and i wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth.

can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?.

Vanderhoven7

"Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the Globe. Gods infallible Word depicts this group as 'coming out of the great tribulation,' being survivors of it, living right on into God's New Order without ever having to die (Revelation 7:9,10,14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60's or 70's or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowed" including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." Survival Into a New Earth p. 185 (emphasis mine) published January 1984

Thirty-seven years after publication and the GT hasn't even started yet. Babies born in 1935 are 86 years old today. The earliest members are now 146 years old or older. It is obvious that the bolded statement above failed to materialize and honest JW's (at least) would therefore have little choice but to admit that the, "Great Crowd" doctrine in it's current form is wrong and needs to be fixed.

10

144000 and the great multitude

by cmaymann in

hellow.

i am studying some material about jehovah’s witness – and i wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth.

can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?.

Vanderhoven7

On what basis do Jehovah's Witnesses distinguish the 144,000 from the "Great Multitude"? Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe the 144,000 and the “Great Crowd” are different groups?

NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE: The 144,000 is not a "great multitude which no man could number".

- Couldn't 144,000 be an ideal, spiritual number, perhaps symbolic of perfection?

The 144,000 must be literal because it is given in contrast to the innumerable number of "Great Multitude" members.

- But couldn't this contrast be one of perspective

(i.e. divine/human) rather than numerical literalness?

CLARIFICATION: You say the tribes are figurative. The number12,000 figurative

But the total number is literal. How can that be?

- How can you be consistent if you decide that in the same phrase, the

tribes and their numeration is spiritual but the total number is literal?

- Why couldn't both the tribes and their numbers be figurative?

- Doesn't this "suspiciously tidy sort of number seem much more

likely to be a symbol than a statistic"?.

("The Message of Revelation", p.80)

LOOKING AT THE NUMBER A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY:

How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?

David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says

The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)

"SEALING DISTINCTION: The 144,000 are distinct because they are "sealed".

- But, if both groups are identical, wouldn't the "Great Crowd" be sealed by the Spirit also and there would no need to repeat this particular fact?

IS THERE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT THE 144,000 AND THE "GREAT MULTITUDE" ARE IDENTICAL?

John's Literary Device in Revelation: Hearing & then Seeing

There is support for the idea that the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" are really the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that Saint John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton clearly demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing in :”Days of Vengeance:”

For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things - after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold a Great Multitude (v.9).

Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:

.....................................................................144,000............................................GREAT CROWD

a. From every kindred and nation............. 5:9.... ..............................................7:9

b. Servants of God.................................. 7:3................................................. 7:15

c. Divinely protected thru tribulation...... 9:4,5 /.................................................Acts 14:22 7:14

d. followers of the Lamb ................................14:4 ..................................................7:17

e. Redeemed ...................................................14:3.............................................. 7:14

f. Pure and Spotless .......................................14:4 .................................................7:13,14

g. Standing before the throne .......................14:1,3................................................ 7:9

h. Before the Lamb................................... 5:8 ......................................................7:9

i. In His temple (naos) ....................................11:1,2 7:15; .......................................11:19

j. Tenting/residing with God ...........................2Cor.6:16 ...........................................7:15

i. Dressed in white robes........................... 6:11 ....................................................7:9

j. Wearing robes that are washed.................. 22:14............................................... 7:14

h. A heavenly class...................................... 14:1; 4:1,2; ........................................19:1

i. Spirit begotten ................................................7:3 I ..............................................Jn. 5:1

6

Phone-witnessing conversation

by Anony Mous in

just got called by a lovely elder(ly) woman trying to get a conversation started about the state of affairs in the world and if it is ever going to get better (this introduction is so old, this came straight from the old 1980's brown book of conversation starters).

at first i asked whether she was a telemarketer, no, she is a "bible student".

i hadn't heard that in a while, so i asked her what denomination, she kind of struggled and quietly said i'm one of jehovah's witnesses - the embarrassment was palpable.. so i said, oh, i'm one of jehovah's witnesses too!

Vanderhoven7

Great conversation! I like your question:

If the Watchtower and the Bible were in conflict, which would you believe?

Thanks for sharing!

27

List of Critical WTS Teachings

by Vanderhoven7 in

i sent a list of statements about current wts teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned witness.. hi em..... just a quick summary of what all “good” jehovah's witnesses believe...even though some of these things witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about.

this is your crash course.

i have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.. witnesses believes that:.

Vanderhoven7

For the record - just corrected a few minor points in the list

UNIQUE BELIEFS OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Witnesses believe that:

a. the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is the one true religion

b. all other religions are part of Satan's organization, Babylon the Great, defined by the Watchtower Society as “the world empire of false religion”.

c. God is soon going to destroy the Whore of Revelation 18 at Armageddon, which includes all churches of Christendom, Catholic and Protestant, as well as all their followers and supporters.

d. with rare exceptions, only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon. The billions who perish at Armageddon will be forever destroyed without any hope of a resurrection.

e. they are to accept every official teaching that comes down from Watchtower headquarters and if they, as adults, vocalize any disagreement and persist in it, will be disfellowshipped and shunned by friends and family. Unity at all costs

f. proper disfellowshipping offenses include ongoing unrepentant celebration of birthdays including Christ's birthday, unrepentant acceptance of blood transfusions, refusal to quit smoking and willing ongoing association with a known disfellowshipped or disassociated person or persons.

g. the 8 member Governing Body serving at Warwick New York headquarters represent the channel of truth for mankind. Together they are the Faithful and Wise Servant spoken of in Matthew 24:45-47.

h. that in October 1914 Jesus second coming occurred invisibly; he then became king and from 1914 on has been ruling in the heavens giving his attention to the earth which initially involved the examination of the churches of Christendom. The last generation that Jesus said surely would not pass away...began in 1914. (note: the youngest of the 1914 generation i.e.,babies born in 1914, are 107 years old today)

i. in the spring of 1918 the apostle Peter and all anointed ones who died (less than 144,000) were raised to heavenly life. The rest of mankind good and bad remain in the grave until the second resurrection which will take place soon.

j. in the fall of 1918, Jesus finished examining the churches and rejected all of them.

k. early in 1919, Jesus found a group of faithful Bible Student leaders serving at Brooklyn New York and appointed them to exclusively channel his truth to the nations via the publishing company they were using (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania). This group of men was the original Faithful Slave of Matthew 24, whose office, mandate and ability to interpret the scriptures accurately was passed down to all subsequent Watchtower leaders. These leaders are not perfect and they can err in doctrine or organizational instruction, but they must be believed and obeyed nonetheless.

l. that prior to the 20th century (from AD 33 to 1900) there were less than 145,000 faithful Christians that ever existed. (Note: this means that the millions who perished as martyrs before the twentieth century were not real Christians in the Watchtower Society's eyes).

m. a new group of Christians began being called early in the 20th century; today there are 8.5 million of these Christians in the world. These are not born-again; they do not have a heavenly hope; they are not in the New Covenant and therefore are not entitled to partake of the bread and the wine symbolizing Jesus' death; they do not have eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit or the imputation of Christ's righteousness. They will only have a chance to earn eternal life if they survive Armageddon and serve God during the 1000 year millennium and prove themselves faithful to the end.

27

List of Critical WTS Teachings

by Vanderhoven7 in

i sent a list of statements about current wts teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned witness.. hi em..... just a quick summary of what all “good” jehovah's witnesses believe...even though some of these things witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about.

this is your crash course.

i have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.. witnesses believes that:.

Vanderhoven7

I know Witnesses believe everything on the list but probably would not want to reveal these unique exclusivitic beliefs to the uninitiated at the start. Eg. All you Catholics are in Satan's organization or we will break up your family and shun you to the day that you die if you leave Jehovah's organization...etc.

27

List of Critical WTS Teachings

by Vanderhoven7 in

i sent a list of statements about current wts teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned witness.. hi em..... just a quick summary of what all “good” jehovah's witnesses believe...even though some of these things witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about.

this is your crash course.

i have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.. witnesses believes that:.

Vanderhoven7

@ Minimus

Exactly what I want Witnesses to admit. To the one being recruited however, all these statements are mythology at best. If they have any Bible knowledge or appreciation at all they can just ask where these "facts" are found in scripture I.e., 1918, 1919, Bible students, Brooklyn etc. found in scripture?

27

List of Critical WTS Teachings

by Vanderhoven7 in

i sent a list of statements about current wts teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned witness.. hi em..... just a quick summary of what all “good” jehovah's witnesses believe...even though some of these things witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about.

this is your crash course.

i have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.. witnesses believes that:.

Vanderhoven7

Excellent point BluesBrother and Truth be known. This summary I created yesterday for a person who is being approached by a Witness. I wanted this unsupportable cult-proving list to be at least reluctantly affirmed by the recruiting Witness.

The Witness would have to admit to these unsupported beliefs or be caught in a lie.

27

List of Critical WTS Teachings

by Vanderhoven7 in

i sent a list of statements about current wts teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned witness.. hi em..... just a quick summary of what all “good” jehovah's witnesses believe...even though some of these things witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about.

this is your crash course.

i have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.. witnesses believes that:.

Vanderhoven7

I sent a list of statements about current WTS teachings to a friend who is being carefully recruited by a seasoned Witness.

Hi EM....

Just a quick summary of what all “good” Jehovah's Witnesses believe...even though some of these things Witnesses are not always willing to be transparent about. This is your crash course. I have quotations for every item listed if you want or need them.

Witnesses believes that:

a. the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses is the one true religion

b. all other religions are part of Satan's organization, referred to as the Whore of Revelation 18...Babylon the Great, defined by the Watchtower Society as “the world empire of false religion”.

c. God is soon going to destroy all churches of Christendom, Catholic and Protestant during the coming “tribulation” or at Armageddon as well as all their followers.

d. with rare exceptions, only faithful JWs will survive Armageddon. The billions who perish at Armageddon will be forever destroyed without any hope of a resurrection.

e. Witnesses are to accept every official teaching that comes down from Watchtower headquarters and if they, as adults, vocalize any disagreement and persist in it will be disfellowshipped and shunned by friends and family. Unity at all costs

f. proper disfellowshipping offenses include ongoing unrepentant celebration of birthdays including Christ's birthday, unrepentant acceptance of blood transfusions or willing ongoing association with a known disfellowshipped or disassociated person or persons.

g. the 8 member Governing Body serving at Warwick New York headquarters represent the channel of truth for mankind. Together they are the Faithful and Wise Servant spoken of in Matthew 24:45-47.

h. that in October 1914 Jesus second coming occurred invisibly; he became king and from 1914 on has been ruling in the heavens giving his attention to the earth initially by examining the churches. The last generation which according to Jesus surely would not pass away...began in 1914. (note...since babies born in 1914 are 107 years old today, this generation teaching is just nonsense)

i. in the spring of 1918 the apostle Peter and all anointed ones who died (less than 144,000) were raised to heavenly life. The rest of mankind good and bad remain in the grave until the second resurrection which will take place soon.

j. In the fall of 1918, Jesus finished examining the churches and rejected all of them.

k. early in 1919, Jesus found a group of faithful Bible Student leaders serving at Brooklyn New York and appointed them to exclusively channel his truth to the nations via the publishing company they were using (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania) This group of men was the original Faithful Slave whose office, mandate and ability to interpret the scriptures accurately was passed down to all subsequent Watchtower leaders. These leaders are not perfect and they can err in doctrine or organizational instruction, but they must be believed and obeyed nonetheless.

l. that prior to the 20th century (from AD 33 to 1900) there were less than 145,000 faithful Christians that ever existed. So this means that the millions who perished as martyrs before the twentieth century were not real Christians in the Watchtower eyes.

m. a new group of Christians began being called early in the 20th century; today there are only 8.5 million of these Christians in the world. These are not born-again; they do not have a heavenly hope; they are not entitled to partake of the bread and the wine symbolizing Jesus' death; they do not have eternal life, the indwelling Holy Spirit or the imputation of Christ's righteousness. They will only have a chance to earn eternal life if they survive Armageddon and serve during the millennium and prove themselves faithful.

One can read each of these statements to a Witness and if they are honest, they will affirm their truthfulness.