Posts by Vanderhoven7

32

What do you do for living?

by Iamallcool in

jw
friends

i am not currently working..

Been retired for the past 16 years. Retired from teaching at 58. I am blessed beyond measure with children who love the Lord and my wife and I will be celebrating our 50th wedding anniversary in August. PTL

20

It took a lot of lies, ignorance and corruption to create CHURCHIANITY!

by TruthMatters in

have you gone back to that- or lost you faith because of 'brothers'?.

Vanderhoven7

For those interested in a summary of 50 "truths" taught by Russell in the Finished Mystery I found online.

"In 1917 the Bible Students published The Finished Mystery, a powerful commentary on Revelation and Ezekiel." Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand! (1988) p.165

1. Charles Taze Russell is the faithful and wise servant (p.4)

2. Jesus gave Russell the key to understanding God’s mysteries in the last days (p.6)

3. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8; 21:6 and 22:13 (p.15, p.318, p.336)

4. The Adventist Nelson Barbour showed Russell Biblical proof that Jesus was present since 1874 and Russell found this evidence satisfactory (p. 54) * 88 "proofs" that Christ's "Second Advent occurred in the Fall of 1874" (pp.68-71)

5. As per Russell, there’s no need to learn the Hebrew or Greek languages to gain a correct understanding of the Bible since the Presbyterians and Methodists have good versions (p. 55)

6. The remnant will be taken to heaven in 1918 (p. 64)

7. The 7 messengers in Revelation are Paul, John, Ario, Waldo, Wycliffe, Luther and Russell (illustration after page 64)

8. The 7 trumpets in Revelation 8:2 are the trumpets of the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Evangelical Alliance and The Bible Students (chart after page 64)

9. Jesus began his reign officially in 1878 after raising the anointed dead (p. 66)

10. Demons will invade the minds of churchgoers in 1918, leading to their destruction. (p.128) "Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions...." (p.485)

11. The behemoth mentioned in Job 40: 15-24 is the stationary steam engine (p. 84)

12. The leviathan mentioned in Job 41:2-19 is the locomotive (p.85)

13. The "voice from heaven" of Revelation 18:4 is the voice of The Watchtower Society. (p.276)

14. According to Exodus 28:1 and Numbers 4:46-48, the number of the great crowd will be approximately 411,840,000 (p.103)

15. The horseman on the white horse in Revelation 6:2 is the personal representative of Satan: the bishop of Rome (p. 106)

16. The stars that fell from the heavens in Revelation 6:13 refers to the meteor shower on November 13, 1833 which covered 11 million square miles. The symbolic fulfillment occurred when the bishops and priests lost their influence over the minds and conscience of the people (p.120)

17. There is evidence that proves that the Palestine will be re-established in 1925 (p.128)

18. The demons will invade the minds of the members of Christianity and will bring them to their destruction in 1918 (p.128)

19. The earth was created 48,000 years ago (p.139)

20. The “angel” mentioned in Revelation 8:5 is the Watchtower Society and the “incense vessel” is the book “Finished Mystery” divinely provided to humanity (p.145)

21. According to Revelation 9:15, all of the 177,300,000 protestants on earth, who represent 1/3 of all Christians, will be destroyed in 1918 (p.164)

22. The “Time of the End” started in 1799 (p.171)

23. The “Great Tribulation” started in 1914 (p.178)

24. Michael the Archangel is the Pope of Rome (p.188)

25. The 2 wings of the woman in Revelation 12:14 are the Old and New Testaments (p.191)

26. England is a satanic country because it forcefully exports 5 million pounds of Opium to China each year (p.202)

27. The Great Pyramid of Egypt confirms the fact that the time of Harvest has come (p.226)

28. Revelation 14:20 provides us with the precise distance between Scranton, Pennsylvania (where this book was written) and Bethel in Brooklyn (where this book was printed) … 137.9 miles (p.230)

29. The clergy are like dumb dogs because they prefer to remain silent rather than accept one single “Truth” from Russell’s precious writings (p.238)

30. The republics will disappear in the Fall of 1920. Every nation will cease to exist as they get swallowed up by anarchy (p. 258)

31. The “glory” of the angel mentioned in Revelation 18:1 enlightened to earth resulting in such great discoveries and inventions such as the electrical motors, airplanes, the Panama Canal, vacuum cleaners, the books from the Watchtower, etc. (p.273)

32. The “voice out of heaven” mentioned in Revelation 18:4 is the voice of the Watchtower (p.276)

33. According to Revelation 18:14, during the millennium, the clergy will have to work for a living. This means that each preacher in Christianity will have to spend 65 cents for an alarm clock (p.285)

34. The God sitting on the throne in Revelation 19:4 is Jesus (p.290)

35. God assumes full responsibility for the entire volume of Studies in the Scriptures (p.295)

36. The Kingdom of a thousand years started in 1874 with the second coming of Jesus (p.301, p.386)

37. According to Revelation 21:17, the number of sheep at the end of the thousand-year reign will be approximately 20.7 Billion (p.323)

38. When Russell understood the full import of God’s Word, he took a firm stand. The spirit, power and influence of God entered him, never to leave (p.377)

39. Ezekiel 5:2, 12, 16, 17 refers to the way in which Jerusalem was destroyed in 606BCE and 70-73EC and it also refers to the way Christianity is being destroyed between 1914 and 1918 (p.398)

40. God’s Day of Vengeance started in 1914 and will culminate in 1918 (p.404)

41. The literal fulfillment of Ezekiel occurred in 1898 when a miller, who publicly thanked the Virgin for dear bread, literally threw gold and silver at a crowd in the streets in a vain attempt to pacify them. But they demanded his life and took it (p.407)

42. According to Ezekiel 11:9, Christianity will literally fall in the hands of labor unions, socialists and anarchists (p. 425)

43. The preachers of Christianity say things that originate in their own imagination (p.432)

44. According to Ezekiel 17:22 and 20:42, Zionism and Judaism will proper on Earth as their leaders will be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others upon their resurrection (p.450, p.462)

45. The congregation mentioned in Ezekiel 23:46 are union workers, socialists, democrats and anarchists (p.480)

46. In fulfillment of Ezekiel 24:15-19, God took away Russell’s desire for his wife by putting a spiritual plague over her which made her “dead” in the eyes of Russell (p.483, p.484)

47. God will destroy all of the churches on earth including all of its millions of members in 1918. It is expected that this will occur on or around April 27, 1918 (p.485, p.513, p.530)

48. All Jews will return to their native land according to God’s promise. Russell has been preaching the message Zionism since October 1910 (p.536, p.554, p.555)

49. In 1878, during the First Resurrection, God raised up the members of the Body of Christ, the “stem of David” (p.539)

50. According to Ezekiel 40:1, the establishment of the Kingdom on earth will occur 13 years after 1918 (p.569)

56

Most of you KNOW it that we witnesses have the Truth from the Bible

by TruthMatters in

it just that the gb has a problem mixing biblical fact with goofy opinions.. but at least is isn't like the churces!.

.

Vanderhoven7

At one time the truth from the Bible was that accepting vaccinations was a sin against the everlasting covenant. Im happy to say that the WTS took full responsibility for those who perished for want of a smallpox vaccine.

Then for years bloodclotting fractions were banned... by the Society ... until Jehovah suddenly changed his mind on the subject...thank goodness.

Then from 1967 to 1980 Jehovah's sole organization on earth banned organ transplants. But now they are OK with him. Funny though, because more white blood cells are passed with each transplant than during a whole blood transfusion.

We should all be glad for the new light Jehovah shares with his people. It is indeed hard to keep up with his speeding chariot.

The Bible encourages us to put our faith for life and death decisions and even our eternal salvation... in uninspired men who evidently hear from God for us.

56

Most of you KNOW it that we witnesses have the Truth from the Bible

by TruthMatters in

it just that the gb has a problem mixing biblical fact with goofy opinions.. but at least is isn't like the churces!.

.

Vanderhoven7

Hi TruthMatters,

Still waiting for you to answer the question.

What would convince you that your faith in the Watchtower Society is misguided?

We already know that a. a stream of erroneous prophetic speculations won't suffice

Mr V- goofy takes on God's prophecies is a mistake made by all.

Hmmmm....can you prove that? I don't remember anyone else teaching that Christ returned in 1874 right up till 1930. I don't remember anyone else teaching that Armageddon would arrive in 1914 along with the end of all human governments. I don't remember all ministers being slaughtered by the masses in 1918; nor anyone suggesting that one could call Jerusalem in 1926 and ask Abraham to raise grandma; that 1925 was God's date not the Watchtowers. I do remember a Watchtower follower prior our high-school grad in 1968 telling me that there was not enough time left to go to university and that if I didn't become a JW by 1975 I would be destroyed. I told him that he would wake up in 1976 with egg all over his face. Guess what. I'm sure he is still window washing today and teaching that we are in the last part of the last day.

It is interesting that the WTS recently identified Hymenaetus and Philetus as apostates for teaching a false date for the resurrection (2 Tim.2:17-18)... and yet the WTS taught that the resurrection occurred in 1878 right up to 1927 when this event was changed to 1918. Imagine being disfellowshipped for apostasy in 1926 for denying that the first resurrection took place in 1878.

So again I ask you as one whose faith is in men who claim to speak for Jehovah, what would convince you that Watchtower religion is false?

56

Most of you KNOW it that we witnesses have the Truth from the Bible

by TruthMatters in

it just that the gb has a problem mixing biblical fact with goofy opinions.. but at least is isn't like the churces!.

.

Vanderhoven7

Hi TruthMatters,

What would convince you that your faith in the Watchtower Society is misguided?

We know what can't suffice:

a. a stream of erroneous prophetic speculations

b. a history of medical misinformation

c. a list of extra-biblical criteria for disfellowshipping members

d. a history of protecting pedophiles and endangering children.

I could go on...but I'm in a rush...so what would convince you that you do not have the truth?

56

Most of you KNOW it that we witnesses have the Truth from the Bible

by TruthMatters in

it just that the gb has a problem mixing biblical fact with goofy opinions.. but at least is isn't like the churces!.

.

Vanderhoven7

Sorry TruthMatters

You have it all wrong. The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses was never the truth; it was never biblical. In fact, every current doctrine which is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is extra-biblical. Your faith is in men and their speculations and interpretive abuse and not scripture.

12

Birthdays

by Mufasa in

i have an honest question, so i hope someone will explain this to me to the best of their ability.

i'm fascinated with learning about religion!

and i've been looking for a place to ask this, believe me it wasn't an easy find.

Vanderhoven7

JWs will tell you that in every instance birthdays are mentioned in scripture somebody gets beheaded or the roof caves in on them etc.

I have heard a seasoned Witness tell me that birthdays focus undue attention on individuals instead of Jehovah.

The truth probably is that they want Witnesses to be separate from the world and look holier than others.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

Vanderhoven7

Hmmm..

But if you are right, how come Jesus couldn't figure this out?

10

144000 and the great multitude

by cmaymann in

hellow.

i am studying some material about jehovah’s witness – and i wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth.

can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?.

Vanderhoven7

NOT SURE WHERE THIS STUDY CAME FROM

After describing the enigmatic chorus of 144.000 Israelites, the apostle was shown an equally enigmatic “Great Multitude”:

Revelations 7: 9: “After these, I looked, and behold, there was a great multitude…”

The phrase: “great multitude”, is also found in Revelations 19: 1, where the Great Multitude appears to be up in the skies: “...I heard a loud noise, like that of a great multitude, from the sky”

Revelations 7: 9: “...that nobody was able to count its number…”

In Genesis 13: 16 God tells Abraham that his seed would become so profuse, that “if anyone could count the grains of sand on the earth, then shall your seed also be counted”. So, in the way that nobody could count the grains of sand on earth and the seed of Abraham, in the same way nobody could count the number of the Great Multitude. With this phrase (“that nobody could count”), Revelations is clearly indicating that the Great Multitude is referring to the seed of Abraham.

The “Witnesses” believe that the seed of Abraham numbers a mere 144.000 faithful; this is apparently the “spiritual Israel” that alone will go to heaven. But here we see that not only is the seed of Abraham not so few in number, but innumerable.

According also to Galatians 3: 29: “If you are of Christ, you are of the seed of Abraham, and … heirs”. If –therefore- you are not of Abraham’s seed and heir, you are not of Christ, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Necessarily, the Great Multitude must be the seed of Abraham.

But the following verse also indicates that the heirs are saints and co-inheritors of the heavenly Kingdom, with Jesus Christ: Romans 8: 16,17: “Children and heirs. Heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ”.

The Great Multitude therefore is the innumerable seed of Abraham, which co-inherits the heavenly kingdom with Jesus Christ.

Revelations 7: 9: “...out of every nation and races and tongues…”

“Witnesses” believe that only 144.000 are kings and priests of God. However, if we combine the above verse with Revelations 5: 9,10, we see that “those who were bought from every nation and peoples and tongues” are ”kings and priests”. Unlike the 144.000, who are described in Revelations as being Israelites. (Revelations 7: 4-8).

Revelations 7: 9: “ ...who stood before the throne and the Lamb...”

“Before” signifies “in front of”. God’s throne is in heaven; therefore, the Great Multitude must also be in heaven, if it is standing in front of God’s throne.

The word “before” is not intended metaphorically here, as used (for example) in the expression: “we now stand before God” , given that God is all-seeing. John here is describing a vision. He actually saw them standing in front of God, up there, in heaven. He was not using any metaphor, any figure of speech. But nobody can actually see us standing before God right now, since we said these words metaphorically. However, the verse we are studying begins with: “...I LOOKED, and behold, there was a great multitude...who stood BEFORE the throne…”

Revelations 7 9: “… garbed in white robes…”

Revelations 7: 14: “...they washed and whitened them, in the blood of the Lamb…”

The “lamb” is Christ. In Isaiah 1: 18, we learn that one whitens oneself, when God forgives him his sins. : “Even if your sins are purple in color, they shall become white as the snow, and if they are red like vermilion, they shall become like bleached wool.”

The Great Multitude therefore is the multitude of those who will have been vindicated, through their faith in the sacrificed blood of Christ; and this is what is symbolized, by their pure white robes.

In Revelations 3: 5, it says: “The victor shall wear white garments." But who is a victor?

Revelations 2: 26: “.…the victor and whomsoever preserves my works to the end…”

Revelations 12: 11: “...and they defeated him (the devil) for the sake of the blood of Christ and for the reason of their testimony, and they did not favor their life, even to the death.”

The victor therefore is the one who defeats the devil to the end, remaining faithful to the blood of Christ, even to their death.

By connecting the above passages, it becomes clear that, for the Great Multitude to be wearing white robes, they must have become victors, to the end, to the death. But if the Great Multitude refers to victors, it is also going to receive the heavenly kingdom along with Christ, according to the following passages:

Revelations 2: 27, and 3: 21: “to the victor….. authority over nations”; “..to whomsoever is victorious…. power over the nations”; “whomsoever is victorious, I shall bestow to him to sit with me in my throne…”.

The great multitude therefore, is only a part of the church of the saints, for the kingdom of heaven.

This is also evident in Revelations 22: 14,15, where, in its ancient text, it says the following: “Blessed are the ones who have washed their robes, so that they can…enter through the gates of the city…...outside, are the dogs….and those who love and preserve deceit.”

In Revelations 21: 9,10, we are told that this city is the Church, the bride of Christ; in other words, the body of the Church who were to reign together with Him. Whomsoever is not a member of that church, is compared to a dog. Since, therefore, there is no Christian outside of it, and since the great multitude with their white robes enter into it, then the Church cannot be comprised of only 144.000 people; it is innumerable.

Another problem that the white robes pose in the dogma of the “Watchtower Witnesses” is the following: The “Witnesses” believe that the Great Multitude will be vindicated at the end of the Thousand-Year Kingdom which –according to them- will take place after the “Great Tribulation”.

But, if those of the Great Multitude “wear white robes, having come from the great tribulation”, it would mean that they are already vindicated, BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM! (Revelations 7: 14).

Revelations 7: 13: “…one of the elders….. saying to me: These who are garbed in white robes - who are they, and where have they come from?”

In Revelations 4: 4 and 7: 11, it is stated very clearly, that the 24 elders were standing “around the throne” of God, in heaven.

So, when the elder asked: “where did they come from?” it is positive proof that the Great Multitude CAME to him, there, IN HEAVEN.

Revelations 7: 15: “...and they worshipped Him, day and night, inside His temple.”

How can the Great Multitude be INSIDE the temple of God, if they were not priests?

In ancient Israel, only priests were permitted to enter the temple. Therefore, the Great Multitude is a hieratic (and consequently a heavenly) order, and the priests are not limited to only 144.000.

The Watchtower organization’s reply to the above comment, is the following assertion:

“The temple also has a courtyard. The Great Multitude therefore isn’t inside the temple, but outside, in the courtyard, therefore they don’t necessarily have to be priests!”

But the word “temple” in the Holy Bible ALWAYS SIGNIFIES THE TEMPLE BUILDING ONLY, as is evident in Revelations 1: 2: “the courtyard that is outside the temple you must cast out, and not count it”.

However, because the Watchtower is aware of this problem, it strives deceitfully to conceal it, by mutating (as it does habitually) the text of the Holy Bible in their own translation, and replacing the same verse with the following version: “as for the courtyard, however, which is outside (the sanctum) of the temple, you must leave it out, entirely…”

In total disrespect of the holy text, and in defiance of the warning in Revelation 22: 18, it adds the word: “sanctum”, in order to salvage its exposed dogma.

And where is the temple, inside of which the Great Multitude worship God as priests ?

Revelations 11: 19: “and the Temple of God which is in heaven opened up”. (Comments are redundant here…)

Revelation 7: 15,16: “and the One seated on the throne shall camp over them… and God shall eliminate every tear from their eyes.”

The Great Multitude is referred to with the same words, in the following passage also:

Revelations 21:2-4: “and I saw the renewed holy city of Jerusalem, descending from the sky….as a bride……behold, the tabernacle of God amongst the people, and He shall camp with them…and they shall become His people, and He, the Lord God, shall be with them as their God….and He shall eliminate every tear…”

The careful reader will realize that here, the Great Multitude is included in the tabernacle of God, the Church, which “descends from the sky”.

But even Paul the Apostle Paul came to agree that the Great Multitude are the “sons of God”, and consequently members of the Celestial Jerusalem, in Corinthians II, 6: 16-18: “as God had said, that: I shall inhabit with them, and I shall walk among them and I shall be their God and they shall be my people…and I shall be unto you as a father and you shall be unto Me as sons and daughters..”

The Great Multitude is present in many passages of Revelations, and always as a part of the celestial Jerusalem, the Church. There is not another order for heaven and another for earth, since the Church itself is the same one, that descends from the new heavens to the new earth.

This is exactly what confuses the “Witnesses”. They were not taught the simple, evangelical truth, that the saints do not only live in the “new heavens”, but also on the “new earth”. Hence, there is no need for two orders, but only one: that of the innumerable Church.

10

144000 and the great multitude

by cmaymann in

hellow.

i am studying some material about jehovah’s witness – and i wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth.

can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?.

Vanderhoven7

"Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the Globe. Gods infallible Word depicts this group as 'coming out of the great tribulation,' being survivors of it, living right on into God's New Order without ever having to die (Revelation 7:9,10,14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60's or 70's or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowed" including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." Survival Into a New Earth p. 185 (emphasis mine) published January 1984

Thirty-seven years after publication and the GT hasn't even started yet. Babies born in 1935 are 86 years old today. The earliest members are now 146 years old or older. It is obvious that the bolded statement above failed to materialize and honest JW's (at least) would therefore have little choice but to admit that the, "Great Crowd" doctrine in it's current form is wrong and needs to be fixed.