Unfortunately Watchtower religion manufactures real liars for the "truth"; people who lack integrity and therefore true repentance and righteousness. Witnesses are permitted and even encouraged to use deception (theocratic warfare) on people they believe are unworthy of the truth. Anyone who opposes Watchtower religion, even if they are right in their criticisms, fit into that category.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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14
Watchtower Dishonesty aka Theocratic Warfare
by Vanderhoven7 ini would like to collect as many instances of watchtower dishonesty and pretense as possible.
here is one from a bulgarian as an example of what i'm looking for.. are jehovah's witnesses disfellowshipped for receiving blood in a hospital?.
helge fauskanger writes: "if witnesses can’t convince the elders that they are utterly “repentant” for this vampiric lapse of theirs, they will be held to have disassociated themselves from the religion — even if they never said a word about wanting to leave it!
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Jammer,
While I await your reply, I wanted to share an article on the progressive light the Watchtower has had on the 1914 generation. Perhaps you can select the one which coincides best with your views.
PROGRESSIVE WATCHTOWER LIGHT ON “THIS GENERATION”
In 1968 the youngest of the 1914 generation were 15 years old.
"Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the 'last days' began. ... Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today." (Awake! Oct 8, 1968 p13)
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In 1978 the youngest of the 1914 generation were clearly not babies
"Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the "generation" logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ's followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus' composite "sign."" (Watchtower Oct 1, 1978 p31)
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In 1980 the youngest of the 1914 generation were revised to 10 years olds.
"As indicated by an article on page 56 of U.S. News & World Report of January 14, 1980, "If you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a person's memory," then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a "recollection of World War I."" (Watchtower Oct 15, 1980 p31)
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In 1984 the youngest of the 1914 generation were reduced to babies.
"If Jesus used "generation" in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80's or 90's, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive." (Watchtower May 15, 1984 p5)
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In 1988 the youngest were babies that were born in 1914
"Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it." (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)
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In 1995 age no longer was a factor in determining the 1914 generation
“Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.” – Watchtower Nov 1, 1995, p.20.
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Finally in 2010 the 1914 generation overlaps.
“How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37.“ Watchtower 04/15, 2010 Article: Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose
So which of the above best approximates your view of the 1914 generation that you "seemingly" acknowledge Matthew 24:21 & 34 exclusively apply to? Hopefully seemingly will soon be clarified.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Jammer,
Do you conclude thst the following two verses apply to Christ's generation exclusively?
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34((I am in a way but not totally. The whole multitude of men living at the same time, Mat 24:34; Mar 13:30; Luk 1:48; 21:32; Phl 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period, Mat 11:16, ))
Ok you apply both verses to the 1914 generation exclusively but include those living around that time period as Vines Expository Dictionary states.
So am I correct in concluding that to you these two verses do not apply to Christ's generation?
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14
Watchtower Dishonesty aka Theocratic Warfare
by Vanderhoven7 ini would like to collect as many instances of watchtower dishonesty and pretense as possible.
here is one from a bulgarian as an example of what i'm looking for.. are jehovah's witnesses disfellowshipped for receiving blood in a hospital?.
helge fauskanger writes: "if witnesses can’t convince the elders that they are utterly “repentant” for this vampiric lapse of theirs, they will be held to have disassociated themselves from the religion — even if they never said a word about wanting to leave it!
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Punky
I'd forgotten about this thread.
Yes, I do get frustrated when I look for clarity and I get evasive answers...that are really attempts to hide the more unsavory or unfounded "truths" their religion teaches.
Thanks for the empathy Punky!
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Clark on Matthew 24 verses 21 and 29
Verse 21
For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
Verse 29
Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Scholar,
<<Absolutely, a 'great tribulation (without the definite article) would foreshadow 'the Great Tribulation described in the next pericope, vss. 29-31 and 'the great tribulation' Rev.7: 14>>.
No, you can't have it both ways. The tribulation (without the adjective great) of verse 29 is referent to the unrepeatable great tribulation of verse 21 which could not foreshadow a greater tribulation.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.....
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Note Rev 7:14 is also about a "great tribulation" (without the definite article)
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Jammer,
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21
1. Are you saying verse 21 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34
2. Are you saying verse 34 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Scholar
Good... you agree with me that Jesus was warning people in his generation exclusively to pray that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath Day? Now, look at the context of these specific prayers.
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The reason they were to pray these things was because the great tribulation was coming and these things would hamper their escape to regions beyond Judaea.
So what you are admitting is that the Great Tribulation took place in the first century.
You can't have it both ways.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Vanderhoven7
Scholar
Van: And are you praying that your flight will not occur in winter or on a Sabbath day?
Scholar: No
So Scholar...are you saying that Jesus was warning people in his generation exclusively to pray that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath Day?
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BLONDIE - It's wonderful to hear from you again
by Listener inblondie, it's so nice to hear from you after a two year break.
i didn't notice your return 10 days ago.
i'm so excited to read all your new posts.. i hope life has treated you well over the last two years.. i think about you every now and then and others do as well.
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Vanderhoven7
Good to see Blondie and Lee back on the forum!
My bet is that Ray was ready to meet his Maker when he left us.