Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@ Scholar.

Thank you for clarity.

My take is that all three dates are based on eisegesis and that Jehovah's Witnesses would not baptize anyone who does not tow the line completely. Why baptize someone who you would later disfellowship for expressing disagreement on any officially marked dates or doctrines?

Without 1914 Jesus Christ's invisible presence and enthronment remain undetermined and undeterminable.

Without 1918 all the churches are still approved temples of God as they were before 1918. So the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses no longe can claim the status of being the one true religion.

Without 1919 the men taking the lead in Warwick are not the Faithful Slave they are claiming to be and therefore do not have God-given authority and mandate to channel God's truth to mankind and then, of course, the entire house of cards collapses.

So, my take is that to be baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness all three extra-biblical dates and the invisible events associated with them would have to be believed.

Now none of these dates were criteria for Christian baptism before the twentieth century...so why is believing in these dates so critical now if one can be a true Christian while rejecting all three?

And if one is a true Christian without faith in 1914, 1918 and 1919, then it is not only Jehovah's Witnesses that have a scriptural hope of surviving Armageddon after all.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar,

If my opinion is unsatisfactory then...

You didn't give me your opinion as to whether or not Jehovah Witnesses would baptize such Christians. You only gave your opinion on the likelihood of this happening.

I want to know if, in your opinion, your organization would baptize Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919? Yes or no.... and why or why not, will do.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@scholar

Re. Baptism Criteria

"I cannot envisage this becoming an issue."

Regardless of what you think, would your organization baptize Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919?

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar

The answer is NO. Such parabolic interpretations and others are not considered to be primary doctrine - not essential for salvation. However, such interpretations are helpful and beneficial for one's faith...

So according to " the only true eschatological church" a person does not have to believe in 1914, 1918, and 1919 to be a Christian. Wonderful!

So will your organization baptize those Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919?

121

Babylon the Great

by Godlyman in

do jw's still believe that babylon the great is the empire of false religion?

inquiring minds want to know .

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@ Fisherman

Neither was Jerusalem a kingdom.

If Jerusalem did not represent the kingdom of God, why did Jesus say, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Matthew 21:43

You can check the following out on https://www.christianforums.com/

Revelation 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

What is the ONLY city with the scriptural authority to "reign over the Kings of the Earth?"

JERUSALEM

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Without question, Jerusalem was the ONLY City with the Divine Right to "Reign over the Kings of the Earth"

The "Woman" of Revelation, who is the "Great City" that "reigns over the Kings of the Earth" can only be Jerusalem.

121

Babylon the Great

by Godlyman in

do jw's still believe that babylon the great is the empire of false religion?

inquiring minds want to know .

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@ Fisherman

Colossians 3:5 KJV — Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

What are you talking about? Jerusalem had a long history of idolatry and prophet killing. idolatry, including covetousness and prophet killing including persecution of the church was always a factor, especially among the religious elite right up till the destruction of the city in 70 AD.

Luke 16:13-14 13¶No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 14¶And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation's Babylon.

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Beth Sarim

If that's the case then it appears that Watchtower is limiting God's ability to save and sanctify individuals based on extra-biblical criteria.

@ Scholar

Your thoughts. Does one have to believe in 1914, 1918, and 1919 to be a Christian?

121

Babylon the Great

by Godlyman in

do jw's still believe that babylon the great is the empire of false religion?

inquiring minds want to know .

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

From

AN EXEGETICAL BASIS FOR A PRETERIST-IDEALIST UNDERSTANDING OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION

“Scripture interpret Scripture” and can be aptly demonstrated with four simple syllogisms:

Major premise#1: Three times this Babylon is called “O great city” (Rev 18:9, 16, 19) Minor premise #1: “The great city” is “where also their Lord was crucified” (Rev 11:8) Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

Major premise #2: Babylon was guilty of “the blood of the prophets” (Rev 17:6; 18:24) Minor premise #2: According to Jesus and Paul, only Jerusalem killed the prophets (Matt 23:34–35; Luke 13:33; 1 Thess 2:15–16) Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon Major

premise #3: John’s people are commanded, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues” (Rev 18:4) Minor premise #3: The only city Jesus ever commanded his followers to flee from is Jerusalem—when they saw two specific signs (Matt 24:15– 16; Luke 21:20–21). Eusebius recorded that this departure happened and no Christians were trapped and destroyed in the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in ad 707 Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

Major premise #4: This Babylon would be destroyed (Rev 18:2, 8, 10, 11, 17, 19–23) Minor premise #4: The only city Jesus said would be destroyed was Jerusalem—it would be “left to you desolate” (Matt 23:38) with “not one stone . . . left on another” (Matt 24:2) Conclusion: Jerusalem is Revelation’s Babylon

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar,

The said scholar has nicely termed the three most significant prophetic dates in the Bible: 1914, 1918, and 1919 as an eschatological triennium.

Can a person be a Christian if he or she doesn't believe that the events purported by Watchtower to have taken place on these three dates actually happened?

In other words does one have to believe in 1914, 1918, and 1919 to be a Christian?

121

Babylon the Great

by Godlyman in

do jw's still believe that babylon the great is the empire of false religion?

inquiring minds want to know .

estephan.

Vanderhoven7

Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216

"Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19

"He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century". Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12.

Vanderhoven7

Posts by Vanderhoven7

AN EXEGETICAL BASIS FOR A PRETERIST-IDEALIST UNDERSTANDING OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION