Those who sleep are unconscious. Lazarus was asleep in Hades (grave) for four days. He had nothing to say about the afterlife, Abraham's Bosom, heaven or Hades.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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92
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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92
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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Vanderhoven7
Hi AQ,
"God did not create hell"
OK, who do you think created Sheol/Hades and the eternal lake of fire?
So my manufactured conversation between Adam and God is "a stupid argument", "nothing more than mockery" and "a childish catacture" of your beliefs about hell and damnation.
Do you view the conversation between The Rich man and Abraham in the same light? (Luke 16:22-26)
And do you think people are in torment in Hades flames as we speak?
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Why do JW apostates tend to be activists against the religion?
by Vanderhoven7 inj. arden writes.
first of all an apostate is literally just someone who left.
most jws are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in.
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Vanderhoven7
Excellent keeper quotation Nathan.
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Why do JW apostates tend to be activists against the religion?
by Vanderhoven7 inj. arden writes.
first of all an apostate is literally just someone who left.
most jws are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in.
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Vanderhoven7
J. Arden writes
First of all an apostate is literally just someone who left. Most JWs are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in. JWs are indoctrinated to use calling someone apostate as a way to dismiss their argument. It’s an ad hominem logical fallacy. If I can just call you apostate or I no longer have to think about anything you said. When you spend years in a high control group and manage to wake up it is common to become interested in what was done to you, it’s part of healing to really understand it and it’s somewhat a responsibility to warn others.
When I learned that the governing body was keeping a database of thousands of pedophiles from judges and law enforcement I was disgusted. When I learned about the two witness rule and the fact that their attempts to stick to this illogical way of investigating things had led to the continued rape and abuse of children I was horrified. Then I think of all the people who think exactly the way I was conditioned to who have little chance of finding freedom and I really do despair.
So yeah, sometimes I speak out against it. So if youre a JW reading this all I can say is please read, research ask yourself questions like what would it feel like really to be in a cult? Would I know that I am? How? Is it really good news that God is going to butcher 8 billion people that I have to help clean up so that I can hang out with Moses and pandas? Is that logical?"
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92
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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Vanderhoven7
Hi AQ
((So your "argument" is nothing more than mockery))
Hmmmm...but isn't the content of my manufactured conversation exactly what you believe?
Let's look at each verse you referenced, one by one, you believe teaches eternal torment of human beings
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92
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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Vanderhoven7
Hi AQ
What about the following manufactured conversation irked you?
"And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"
<<Obviously, what has not been revealed already to Adam, cannot exist, what kind of stupid argument is this? >>
What kind of a "stupid" argument did Elijah present when he suggested that the false prophets shout louder because Baal might be off doing his business?
What is wrong with the argument itself? If Jehovah had actually said this to Adam, would something he said be in error according to your view? Do billions of people screaming in the eternal lake of fire not glorify God?
By the way, eternal torment of human beings is not taught anywhere in scripture. Let's go over your eternal torment verses one by one.
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92
Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"
by aqwsed12345 inthe narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.
the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).
he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.
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Vanderhoven7
Conversation deleted from the original book of Genesis
And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"
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Why are aqwsed12345 post`s so long ?
by smiddy3 inthere is no way i will even try to read such long posts and i`m sure many others here would agree with me.. smiddy3.
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Vanderhoven7
Yes, many are too long. My suggestion
Deal with or challenge one or two main points on a subject or post and wait for comment.
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Aside from the alleged "composite Sign", what is the scriptural evidence for Christ's 1914 presence?
by Vanderhoven7 inmy take is: 1914 is not biblical since no dates are in the bible.
a hodgepodge of scriptures are ingeniously linked together; then stir in about 9 creative assumptions to arrive at a speculative theory on which to base wts authority.. nathan knorr to fred franz.
"there are some things that i know.
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Vanderhoven7
My take is: 1914 is not biblical since no dates are in the Bible. A hodgepodge of scriptures are ingeniously linked together; then stir in about 9 creative assumptions to arrive at a speculative theory on which to base WTS authority.
Nathan Knorr to Fred Franz
"There are some things that I know. I know that Jehovah is God, that Christ Jesus is His Son, that he gave his life as a ransom for us, that there is a resurrection.
Other things I am not so certain about. 1914 I don't know. We have talked about 1914 for a long time. We might be right and I hope we are."
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AN ALTERNATIVE CONVERSATION WITH A NEIGHBOR - Watchtower, October 2014
by AnnOMaly inthe contrived and unrealistic conversation that one of jehovahs witnesses imagined having with a neighbor in the october 2014 watchtower will not be reproduced here.
instead let us imagine another conversation another witness named andre (ahem, sorry) cameron has at the home of another man who is also named jon.keep searching for a suckercameron: jon, ive really enjoyed the regular discussions weve been having about the bible.
* the last time we spoke, you raised a question about gods kingdom.
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Vanderhoven7
It seems that Bible scholarship supports 1914
"The matter of Bible chronology had long been of great interest to Bible students. Commentators had set out a variety of views on Jesus’ prophecy about “the times of the Gentiles” and the prophet Daniel’s record of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream regarding the tree stump that was banded for “seven times.”—Luke 21:24, KJV; Dan. 4:10-17.
As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. But he did not clearly discern the date with which the prophetic time period began or when it would end. He did, however, connect these “seven times” with the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24.
In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel, but he also set out an alternate view that pointed to the time of the French Revolution.
Robert Seeley, of London, in 1849, handled the matter in a similar manner. At least by 1870, a publication edited by Joseph Seiss and associates and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was setting out calculations that pointed to 1914 as a significant date.
In the August, September, and October 1875 issues of Herald of the Morning, N. H. Barbour helped to harmonize details that had been pointed out by others. Using chronology compiled by Christopher Bowen, a clergyman in England, and published by E. B. Elliott, Barbour identified the start of the Gentile Times with King Zedekiah’s removal from kingship as foretold at Ezekiel 21:25, 26, and he pointed to 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.
What is meant by the expression ‘Gentile Times,’ or “appointed times of the nations”? And how is it connected with God’s Kingdom? To answer these questions, let us take a more detailed look at Jesus’ words. He said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations [Gentiles], until the appointed times of the nations [Gentiles] are fulfilled.”—Luke 21:24.
What is meant by “Jerusalem”? It points to God’s Kingdom. How do we know? Ancient Israel was God’s chosen people from 1513 B.C.E. down to the first century of our Common Era. (Exodus 19:6; Matthew 23:37, 38) Jehovah organized them under a typical theocratic government, or God-rule. Jerusalem became the capital city. It was there that the God-anointed line of kings from David sat “upon Jehovah’s throne.” They ruled as kings for Jehovah. (1 Chronicles 29:23; 2 Chronicles 9:8) The Cyclopaedia by M’Clintock and Strong states: “Jerusalem had been made the imperial residence of the king of all Israel; and the Temple, often called ‘the house of Jehovah,’ constituted at the same time the residence of the King of kings, the supreme head of the theocratical state.”
When and how was Jerusalem trampled on by the Gentiles? The trampling began in 607 B.C.E. How? By the abrupt ending of the Davidic dynasty. King Zedekiah was dethroned and the city of Jerusalem destroyed by waves of invading Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. The Bible at Ezekiel 21:26, 27 foretold this breach in the Davidic line of kings by saying: “Lift off the crown . . . it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” God’s rule was under restraint until “the appointed times of the nations” would end. Thus, the Gentile Times were a time period when the nations ruled without Jehovah God’s having a government to represent his rulership in the earth.
When the Gentile Times ended, Jehovah was to give the power to rule to the One “who has the legal right,” Jesus Christ. Therefore, 1914 would mark the time when Christ began to rule as King in God’s heavenly Kingdom, and since his rulership extends down to this day, it touches you