Posts by Vanderhoven7

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AQ,

Let's go through every verse together that you believe supports the doctrine of eternal torment.

Your first verse you mention is Deut 32:22 which reads

For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. RSV

How does this first verse suggest human beings experience either temporary or eternal torment in Sheol?

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AQ,

((The 'sheol' / 'hades' is not the grave))

Sheol is the single Hebrew word often translated as hell. "Sheol appears 65 times in the OT. In the King James Version (KJV), Sheol is translated 31 times as hell; 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit. In the New Innternational Version (NIV) Sheol is translated 57 times as grave; 7 times as death and once as depths.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE FACTS THAT BECOME APPARENT ABOUT SHEOL?

Sheol is located downward in the dust of the earth. (Job 17:13-16)

Both the good and the bad go to Sheol.

Jacob and his sons go to Sheol. (Gen.42:38)

David planned to rest in Sheol. (Ps.16:9-10)

David desired his enemies also go down to Sheol, not in peace, but in blood. (I Kings 2:6,9)

By going to Sheol, Job misses God's wrath. Job actually asks to be hidden in Sheol to escape God's anger. (Job 14:13)

The terms death, the grave, and destruction are so closely bound as to be often interchangeable in the text (Pr.15:11, 24; 27:20).

Not too much goes on in Sheol.

There is no wisdom or knowledge there and no activity or work for those who go down to silence. (Eccl.9:10 Ps.6:5 Ps. 31:17) No person praises God from Sheol (Ps.6:5; 88:10-12)

Figurative language is often associated with Sheol. Beds are made In Sheol. Maggots are spread beneath the dead and worms cover them like a blanket. (Is.14:11)

Sheol is even personified. It is pictured as snatching sinners and robbing people of their remaining years. (Job 24:19);

Sheol has an appetite. It opens its mouth without limit. It is never satisfied. (Pr.27:20) Sheol is naked before God.

Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. 1 Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits, i.e. ruling

MOST IMPORTANT: God will redeem souls from Sheol's power. (Ps.49:15)

Sheol will not have the last word. Sheol is going to be plagued and death is going to be destroyed! (Hos.13:14 KJV) Sheol is not eternal therefore, but temporary. God is with the righteous in Sheol and His promise is not to abandon them there forever. (Ps.16:10; 139:8)

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Those who sleep are unconscious. Lazarus was asleep in Hades (grave) for four days. He had nothing to say about the afterlife, Abraham's Bosom, heaven or Hades.

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AQ,

"God did not create hell"

OK, who do you think created Sheol/Hades and the eternal lake of fire?

So my manufactured conversation between Adam and God is "a stupid argument", "nothing more than mockery" and "a childish catacture" of your beliefs about hell and damnation.

Do you view the conversation between The Rich man and Abraham in the same light? (Luke 16:22-26)

And do you think people are in torment in Hades flames as we speak?

20

Why do JW apostates tend to be activists against the religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

j. arden writes.

first of all an apostate is literally just someone who left.

most jws are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in.

Vanderhoven7

Excellent keeper quotation Nathan.

20

Why do JW apostates tend to be activists against the religion?

by Vanderhoven7 in

j. arden writes.

first of all an apostate is literally just someone who left.

most jws are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in.

Vanderhoven7

J. Arden writes

First of all an apostate is literally just someone who left. Most JWs are technically apostates from the religions they were raised in. JWs are indoctrinated to use calling someone apostate as a way to dismiss their argument. It’s an ad hominem logical fallacy. If I can just call you apostate or I no longer have to think about anything you said. When you spend years in a high control group and manage to wake up it is common to become interested in what was done to you, it’s part of healing to really understand it and it’s somewhat a responsibility to warn others.

When I learned that the governing body was keeping a database of thousands of pedophiles from judges and law enforcement I was disgusted. When I learned about the two witness rule and the fact that their attempts to stick to this illogical way of investigating things had led to the continued rape and abuse of children I was horrified. Then I think of all the people who think exactly the way I was conditioned to who have little chance of finding freedom and I really do despair.

So yeah, sometimes I speak out against it. So if youre a JW reading this all I can say is please read, research ask yourself questions like what would it feel like really to be in a cult? Would I know that I am? How? Is it really good news that God is going to butcher 8 billion people that I have to help clean up so that I can hang out with Moses and pandas? Is that logical?"

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AQ

((So your "argument" is nothing more than mockery))

Hmmmm...but isn't the content of my manufactured conversation exactly what you believe?

Let's look at each verse you referenced, one by one, you believe teaches eternal torment of human beings

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Hi AQ

What about the following manufactured conversation irked you?

"And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"

<<Obviously, what has not been revealed already to Adam, cannot exist, what kind of stupid argument is this? >>

What kind of a "stupid" argument did Elijah present when he suggested that the false prophets shout louder because Baal might be off doing his business?

What is wrong with the argument itself? If Jehovah had actually said this to Adam, would something he said be in error according to your view? Do billions of people screaming in the eternal lake of fire not glorify God?

By the way, eternal torment of human beings is not taught anywhere in scripture. Let's go over your eternal torment verses one by one.

92

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 in

the narrator of the book of ecclesiastes had very little knowledge of many things that jesus and his apostles later preached.

the author does not make statements, but only wonders (thinks, observes, often raises questions, and leaves them open).

he looked at the world based on the law of moses and found nothing but vanity, as the earthly reward promised in the law did not always accompany good deeds and earthly punishment for evil deeds.

Vanderhoven7

Conversation deleted from the original book of Genesis

And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"

And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. Gen.37:35 Does Jacob's response indicate that he believes Joseph is conscious and well in a happy part of Sheol? Let's see how this verse is translated to see if this thought of yours is supported.
NKJV	And all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and he said, “For I shall go down into the grave to my son in mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
NLT	His family all tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “I will go to my grave mourning for my son,” he would say, and then he would weep.
ASV	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down to Sheol to my son mourning. And his father wept for him.
DBY	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted, and said, For I will go down to my son into Sheol mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
HNV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted. He said, "For I will go down to She'ol to my son mourning." His father wept for him.
RSV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him.
VUL	congregatis autem cunctis liberis eius ut lenirent dolorem patris noluit consolationem recipere et ait descendam ad filium meum lugens in infernum et illo perseverante in fletu
WEB	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave to my son mourning: Thus his father wept for him.
YLT	and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
NIV	All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “No,” he said, “I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave.” So his father wept for him.
ESV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
RVR60	Y se levantaron todos sus hijos y todas sus hijas para consolarlo; mas él no quiso recibir consuelo, y dijo: Descenderé enlutado a mi hijo hasta el Seol. Y lo lloró su padre.
CSB	All his sons and daughters tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “No,” he said. “I will go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” And his father wept for him.
NET	All his sons and daughters stood by him to console him, but he refused to be consoled. "No," he said, "I will go to the grave mourning my son." So Joseph's father wept for him.
WLC	וַיָּקֻמוּ֩ כָל־בָּנָ֨יו וְכָל־בְּנֹתָ֜יו לְנַחֲמֹ֗ו וַיְמָאֵן֙ לְהִתְנַחֵ֔ם וַיֹּ֕אמֶר כִּֽי־אֵרֵ֧ד אֶל־בְּנִ֛י אָבֵ֖ל שְׁאֹ֑לָה וַיֵּ֥בְךְּ אֹתֹ֖ו אָבִֽיו׃
LXX	συνήχθησαν δὲ πάντες οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ αἱ θυγατέρες καὶ ἦλθον παρακαλέσαι αὐτόν καὶ οὐκ ἤθελεν παρακαλεῖσθαι λέγων ὅτι καταβήσομαι πρὸς τὸν υἱόν μου πενθῶν εἰς ᾅδου καὶ ἔκλαυσεν αὐτὸν ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ
BBE	And all his sons and all his daughters came to give him comfort, but he would not be comforted, saying with weeping, I will go down to the underworld to my son. So great was his father's sorrow for him.


NKJV	And all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and he said, “For I shall go down into the grave to my son in mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
NLT	His family all tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “I will go to my grave mourning for my son,” he would say, and then he would weep.
ASV	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down to Sheol to my son mourning. And his father wept for him.
DBY	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted, and said, For I will go down to my son into Sheol mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
HNV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted. He said, "For I will go down to She'ol to my son mourning." His father wept for him.
RSV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him.
VUL	congregatis autem cunctis liberis eius ut lenirent dolorem patris noluit consolationem recipere et ait descendam ad filium meum lugens in infernum et illo perseverante in fletu
WEB	And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave to my son mourning: Thus his father wept for him.
YLT	and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
NIV	All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “No,” he said, “I will continue to mourn until I join my son in the grave.” So his father wept for him.
ESV	All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
RVR60
CSB	All his sons and daughters tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. “No,” he said. “I will go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” And his father wept for him.
NET	All his sons and daughters stood by him to console him, but he refused to be consoled. "No," he said, "I will go to the grave mourning my son." So Joseph's father wept for him.