Exactly Tonus.
And they know there were less than 150,000 real Christians from Pentecost till the start of the 20th century because of a number theory. And yet they say they don't judge anyone; they leave it all to Jehovah.
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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43
How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
@ Slim
I see you do not trust the biblical record: 3000 @ Pentecost alone, followed by 5000 followed by multitude after multitude in Acts of the Holy Spirit.
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
other thread TD said:
In JW theology, there was only one hope from Pentecost clear up until the supposed proximity of the end made the identification of the Great Crowd possible.
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government. (The Watchtower, February 15, 1982 p. 30)
It is not possible for "Other Sheep" to exist as a class apart from the "Great Crowd" in the Christian era. (Again in JW theology) John only saw two groups, not three.
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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?
by Vanderhoven7 intext: matthew 24:45-47.
45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
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Vanderhoven7
@Konagirl
The Pharisees controlled the common people by their hellfire after death teaching...so why would Jesus create a parable using their teacing about Abraham's Bosom and hellfire doctrine? Wouldn't that just affirm the Pharisee's beliefs about what happens in the afterlife?
Secondly, how do you think the Pharisees justified not lifting a finger to help the poor?
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How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
In a conversation I'm having
Me: Do you think it is possible that over 200,000 of the millions who were martyred for the name of Jesus prior to the 2Oth century might have been faithful Christians as well? How would you know otherwise?
Him: Jesus foretold the apostasy in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds. John as the last surviving apostle stated that the apostasy had already begun as of 96 CE while he was still living. By the council of Nicaea in 325 CE, the church was already neck deep in apostasy. So, while there may have been faithful ones scattered about, they did not come from the the Catholic or Orthodox apostates.
So as I have noted, through no fault of their own, most people (as in 99.999% of them) had no access to scriptural truth. There were surely “faithful” Jews with the Torah and the OT, but they had officially rejected Jesus as the Messiah and continue to do so as of February 2024.
Martin Luther and John Calvin had the opportunity to break free from the “antichrist” tenets of the Catholic church. Instead, they simply adopted a modified version of it while maintaining its most egregious apostate doctrines.
The Anglican Church was nothing but a political tool in the hands of Henry VIII. No spiritual truth was going to flow from that unholy mess. The one positive that did eventually emerge, however, was the King James authorized version of 1611 that put truth into the vernacular of the “ploughman” as Tyndale so aptly put it.
Me: (So as I have noted, through no fault of their own, most people (as in 99.999% of them) had no access to scriptural truth.))
And your source for this stat is?
It's amazing that you know what was missing in the minds of millions of martyrs for the name of Christ that determined they were not true Christians.
So what exactly was the saving scriptural truth that was missing from the minds and hearts of these martyrs that prevented them from knowing and loving the Father and the Son?
Since you can read the minds and hearts of millions of martyrs to judge them as false Christians perhaps you can tell me how many people became true Christians in the first century alone after the gospel was preached throughout the then inhabited world.
Him: As far a the first century Christians are concerned, maybe there were 100,000. IDK. I’m attempting to have a respectable conversation but your snarky comments attacking me are pointless. I don’t have access to exact numbers from 2000 years ago any more than you do.
Me:(I don’t have access to exact numbers from 2000 years ago any more than you do.))
True, but I'm not the one setting the limit or judging millions of martyrs as counterfeit Christians.
The apostles taught many as did the disciples who were scattered abroad after the death of Stephen. Remember, the gospel was published throughout the entire inhabited world. Do you really know how many faithful Christians existed in the first century? You guess about 100,000. How do you know it wasn't 200,000 or much more?
The fact is you don't know. All you are doing is presenting the the Slave's untenable guesswork based on an unrealistic number theory.
Stop guessing and tell me what you know for a fact.
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43
How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
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Vanderhoven7
Excellent Point Stan! Their number theory is untenable.
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Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?
by Vanderhoven7 intext: matthew 24:45-47.
45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Konagirl,
I did not say that Hades hell was eternal. It is Gehenna aka the lake of fire which is eternal. I realize Hades is considered all about temporary torture until the final judgment where the torment will never end.
Now, since you don't believe in torment after death, why do you think Jesus copied the Pharisees story about torment in the afterlife to illustrate some truth about judgment?
And what was that truth he was illustrating?
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43
How do JWs know that less than 150,000 Christians existed before the 20th Century?
by Vanderhoven7 inaccording to watchtower, only anointed christians existed between the first and 20th centuries.
the great crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.. how do they support this conclusion?
.
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Vanderhoven7
According to Watchtower, only anointed Christians existed between the first and 20th centuries. The Great Crowd of other sheep only began forming after the 20th century started.
How do they support this conclusion?
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39
Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?
by Vanderhoven7 intext: matthew 24:45-47.
45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Konagirl
Satire is not a joke. It is serious business. I am sure that you believe God's plan for those who reject Christ is torture. But torture is not the wages of sin. Do you really think Adam and Eve and just about everyone else are burning in Hades as we speak.
Try
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39
Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?
by Vanderhoven7 intext: matthew 24:45-47.
45 “who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.
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Vanderhoven7
@Rattigan
That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt attributed to Josephus, (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.
"Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behavior and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. "
The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator. Hartford Conn. The S.S. Scranton Co., 1900, pp. 901-902
BTW, Abraham's Bosom is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures. It was invented in the intertestamental period to separate the just from the unjust in Sheol.