Gentlemen
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.1. Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces or by the God of the Pharisees himself?2. Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?3. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?Hey, fyi I don't read long posts. So keep your answers short and simple. Thanks! -
128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
Yes God will torment body and soul in the hell of the Pharisees. Remember Dives tongue could have a wee bit of relief from a few drops of water. Right now there are thousands of millions pleading for drops of water as we speak...all, no doubt to the glory of Satan... because God wants no one to be tormented eternally, but is obviously powerless to do anything about the situation.
Who is turning up the heat I wonder?
I always wondered why John Calvin sought to rescue Michael Servetus from half an hour of the intense pain of being burned alive at the stake...when he was sending him off to an eternity of the same. I guess John was more merciful than God and Satan or whoever created this imaginary place of torment.
And if God wants no one to be tormented eternally, how come his Faithful children under the alter are crying out in revenge for more heat to be applied?
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@Sea Breeze
Both are literal.
Eternal judgment (Heb.6:2) is literal as well....but does eternal judgment require a never ending court case? There is a distinction between eternal judgment and eternal judging.
So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor? -
128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..Thus immortality is something, alive or dead that we do not have currently.Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment?Was he saying: If Christ be not raised you Corinthians and everyone else will be tormented forever and ever....so eat drink and be merry until your torture begins. Oh wait, if you eat drink and engage in immoral practices, your pain levels in hell will increase exponentially.Why not start answering my questions instead of ignoring them?Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor? -
128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed as well.Note: those who are dead and those living at Christ's coming will be changed and given immortality.52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Those living at Christ's coming will be changed53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality..Thus immortality is something that we do not have currently.Now if Christ did not rise from the dead, is Paul telling the Corinthians they would all perish at death or would they all be in torment? -
128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
Well, since immortality is something we must wait till the resurrection to put on, I would say that is proof enough that human souls are not innately immortal.
BTW, all in their graves, good and evil, will come forth at the resurrection. So death is not the end.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@TTW
The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.
However, good news for you. The Pharisees believed the torment would last until the final judgment when the torment would be worse. You know, out of the frying pan, into the fire so-to-speak.
HISTORICAL NOTE: That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt attributed to Josephus (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.
Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behaviour and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hyms, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. (Underscoring mine)
Source: Flavius, Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator. pp. 901-902
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
@TTWSYF
Lazarus and the rich man IS proof.
Can a spoof be proof?
The rich man is BEING tormented. There’s no supporting texts saying that it’s going to end. That’s proof enough to me. He’s burning and NOT dying.
The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.
Verse 25 tell us why the rich man ended up in torment and Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom. Let me paraphrase here:
Abraham said, "SON, it's because Lazarus suffered torments in life and was poor and so he ended up in paradise ... but because you had a good life and had all you wanted, you are now in torments. It's only fair."
How do you think the Pharisees might have reacted to this story? I think it would mirror their response to the preceding allegory commending the covetous self-seeking steward. Good satire, subtly but forcefully, brings home moral or spiritual truths and at the same time leaves unworthy opponents speechless; unable to argue, without first acknowledging that they fit into the negative allegory....leaving them no choice but to attack the man rather than dealing with concepts he was challenging them with.
BTW, the headline in the Jerusalem Chronicle the next day was; "Jesus Turns The Table on The Pharisees in the Afterlife!"
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
I'm not asking for more proof. I'm asking for some proof. I don't care what some or most Christians believe or believed.
It's fine if you cannot support your beliefs from scripture and have to deflect to what others believe.
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128
Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?
by Sea Breeze inlooks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.
why don't the jw's do the same?.
from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).
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Vanderhoven7
No TTWSF
It's what the scriptures say that is important.
And so far you have not produced a single scripture to support immortality of the soul or eternal torment.or explained where the term Abraham's Bosom originated.
Let me ask you another question while I am at it. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to alleviate the suffering of the poor?
Actually watch my video and you will find out.