Posts by Vanderhoven7

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

"Amen ... today ... in paradise"[edit]

The phrase translated "Amen, I say to you, today you will be in paradise" in Luke 23:43 ("Ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."[16] Amén soi légo sémeron met' emoû ése en tôi paradeísoi) is disputed in a minority of versions and commentaries. The Greek manuscripts are without punctuation, so attribution of the adverb "today" to the verb "be", as "Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (the majority view), or the verb "say", as "Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise" (the minority view), is dependent on analysis of word order conventions in Koine Greek. The majority of ancient Bible translations also follow the majority view, with only the Aramaic language Curetonian Gospels offering significant testimony to the minority view.

It seems that Martha held to the minority view.

19

Does The WT Keep Files On ExJW Activists?

by NotFormer in

it occurred to me that the wt, if they can identify the activists that are currently campaigning against them, would have a lot of ability to compile detailed dossiers on them.

once identified, the elders of the appropriate congregation could be asked to forward copies of all their membership details held locally.. would they do that, and do such dossiers exist?.

(there are probably data collection rules governing such things in a lot of countries, but by no stretch of the imagination could the wt be considered a good corporate citizen).

Vanderhoven7

I believe the GB have people monitoring this forum and others and that's what precipitated some of the more recent admissions and changes. They adjust just like the Borg

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

HISTORICAL NOTE: According to Vine's OT. Dictionary, "Sheol was not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimate resting place of all mankind". The idea that Sheol was a place of conscious punishment became predominant during the intertestamental period with the influence of Babylonian and subsequently Greek culture and philosophy upon Judaism. The apparent enigma of the righteous also being in Sheol was resolved in some but not all rabbinical circles, by subdividing or compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. The wicked were hopelessly consigned to an area of Sheol where punishments were applied commensurate with one's performance in life, while the righteous were segregated and awaiting redemption in a part of Sheol having paradisiacal dimensions, i.e.,Abraham's Bosom. As The New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology states, "With the infiltration of the Greek doctrine of immortality of the soul, paradise becomes the dwelling place of the righteous during the intermediate state."

Sheol, the hell of the OT is "the common fate of all mortals". Aside from the hope and promise of redemption for the righteous from Sheol's grip, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing the lot of the righteous from that of the unrighteous. Death then, becomes the universal enemy; it is not presented as a release to heavenly life and immortality. Rather, death is itself "the problem - for which resurrection is the answer". 7 Further, conscious punishment, regardless of duration, is not explicitly taught in any of the OT Sheol passages. If some kind of sustained torment is being implicitly taught therein, this theme certainly remains undeveloped.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM: The enigma of the righteous being in Sheol (Hades) along with the wicked, was tentatively resolved during the intertestamental period by compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. In Jesus' day, the part of Hades where the righteous were detained was commonly referred to by the Pharisees as Abraham's Bosom. This was a place of rest and banqueting where the souls of the righteous enjoyed "intimate fellowship with the father of the race (Abraham), who is still alive and blessed in death."

PLACE OF TORMENT: The idea of "torment" being associated with Hades was also clearly a part of the Pharisaic tradition of Jesus' day. This traditional belief which similarly developed during the intertestamental period is attested to and quite graphically elaborated on in much of the the religious folklore prevalent at the time.

A point worthy of note here, is that when Jesus used the terms "Abraham's Bosom", and "Torment" in reference to Hades, he was employing terms and concepts not rooted in scripture, but in rabbinical tradition. He was using terms fully comprehended by the Pharisees and clearly endorsed by their teachings about the afterlife. And equally important, Abraham's Bosom, and Torment were terms the Pharisees used regularly to justify their total neglect of the poor.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Re: souls under the alter Rev.6:9

Very difficult to see bodiless souls, mortal or otherwise. This is obviously a vision describing the suffering church. The martyr's cry is akin to the blood of Able crying out for justice.(Gen.4:10)

Ellicott's commentary on this verse reads as follows

The word “souls” has been made a resting-place for an argument respecting the intermediate state. There is no ground for this: it is quite beside the object of the seal, which simply exhibits the sufferings of Christ’s people as the necessary accompaniment of the progress of the gospel. These sufferings are because of the Word of God and the testimony which they held. It was because of the Word of God and the testimony that the sacred seer himself suffered (Revelation 1:9). The words here remind us that the same issue which St. John fought, the suffering ones of after ages would be fighting. Their witness and his was the God-man; to this testimony they clung. They were not ashamed of Christ, or of His words, and they suffered for their courage and fidelity.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@ Vienne

Excellent response!

Even Martha knew when she would see her brother again.

"I know I will see him in Abraham's Bosom when I die", she said,

"Go to the top of the class Martha!", the Pharisees responded.

@Sea Breeze

<< Ez. 18:4 is correct. "The soul that is sinning will be separated from its body." (The New SeaBreeze Translation>>

(ASV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(DRB) Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.

(GNB) The life of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The person who sins is the one who will die.

(KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(KJV+) Behold,H2005 allH3605 soulsH5315 are mine; as the soulH5315 of the father,H1 so also the soulH5315 of the sonH1121 is mine: the soulH5315 that sinneth,H2398 itH1931 shall die.H4191

(KJVA) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(LITV) Behold, they are all My souls. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

(MKJV) Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

(YLT) Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son—they are Mine, The soul that is sinning—it doth die.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Is Satan literal?

Is Satan the dragon?

Is the dragon literal?

Eternal punishment is literal in the sense that eternal Judgment is literal.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Gentlemen

So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.

1. Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces or by the God of the Pharisees himself?

2. Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

3. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?

Hey, fyi I don't read long posts. So keep your answers short and simple. Thanks!

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

Yes God will torment body and soul in the hell of the Pharisees. Remember Dives tongue could have a wee bit of relief from a few drops of water. Right now there are thousands of millions pleading for drops of water as we speak...all, no doubt to the glory of Satan... because God wants no one to be tormented eternally, but is obviously powerless to do anything about the situation.

Who is turning up the heat I wonder?

I always wondered why John Calvin sought to rescue Michael Servetus from half an hour of the intense pain of being burned alive at the stake...when he was sending him off to an eternity of the same. I guess John was more merciful than God and Satan or whoever created this imaginary place of torment.

And if God wants no one to be tormented eternally, how come his Faithful children under the alter are crying out in revenge for more heat to be applied?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

Vanderhoven7

@Sea Breeze

Both are literal.

Eternal judgment (Heb.6:2) is literal as well....but does eternal judgment require a never ending court case? There is a distinction between eternal judgment and eternal judging.

So let's start answering my questions instead of ignoring them.

Where are the children of the Sodomites? Are they in heaven, in Abraham's Bosom or are they being whipped by evil angelic forces.

Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to help the poor?