Here's part of the transcript from yesterday when Stewart spoke to the JW Lawyer about Geoff Jackson. Mr O'Brien today admitted that he had coached the lawyer as to what to say.
MR
STEWART: Your Honour, just prior to
resuming the
8
examination of Mr Spinks, I might take the opportunity to
9
say something about Mr Geoffrey Jackson.
He is a member of
10
the Governing Body and he is currently in Australia --
11
12
THE CHAIR: That is the Governing
Body in New York?
13
14
MR STEWART: That's right. Some weeks ago it came to the
15
attention of the Royal Commission that Mr Jackson, a member
16
of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses in New York,
17
was in Australia. We wrote to the
lawyers acting for
18
Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia and asked if their client
19
would procure a statement from Mr Jackson and make him
20
available as a witness. The reply
that was received was
21
that Mr Jackson was in Australia for private, compassionate
22
reasons and, also, that since the Governing Body was not
23
involved in the implementation and administration of
24
policies and procedures in relation to child sexual abuse,
25
he would not be able to give relevant evidence.
26
27 The Royal Commission then left the
matter at that
28
point, but subsequently came to the view that Mr Jackson's
29
evidence would likely be useful for this hearing,
30
particularly in relation to the formulation of policies and
31
procedures by the Governing Body and the possibility for
32
change of policies and procedures in the future. We
33
therefore wrote last week asking whether the lawyers for
34
the Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia would accept service
35
of a summons on Mr Jackson. The
reply that was received
36
reiterated that for reasons of compassion related to why
37
Mr Jackson was in the country, it would, as it was put, be
38
unconscionable for him to be required to prepare to give
39
evidence and to give evidence.
40
41 Taking that into account, Mr
Jackson has not been
42
summonsed to give evidence. We
would, however, welcome
43
evidence from him, or another member of the Governing Body,
44
particularly with regard to the setting of policies and
45
procedures and the possibilities for change of those
46
policies and procedures, and the door is open for the
47
Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia or the Watchtower Bible &
.04/08/2015 (152) 15676 R P SPINKS (Mr Stewart)
Transcript
produced by DTI
1
Tract Society of Australia to present such evidence for
2
this hearing, including by video conference.
3
4
THE CHAIR: Gentlemen, I don't
know which of you two
5
should respond to that. Could I
make it plain, if it is
6
not plain already, that the Commissioner and I have concern
7
about the process of investigation and determination of
8
allegations within the Jehovah's Witnesses and whether it
9
is a safe and effective process for the determination of an
10
allegation by a person that they have been sexually abused
11
by someone within the church.
12
13 Now, I understand the theocratic
foundation for the
14
present position - at least, I think I do. But at the
15
moment, we do not have a witness, as I understand it, who
16
can tell us what the way forward might be to enable the
17
church to bring its processes to the point where, rather
18
than run the risk of increasing the trauma on those who
19
have been abused, the processes can assist in alleviating
20
the trauma. It is of fundamental
importance to people who
21
have been abused that when they go to the relevant
22
authorities - and in this case, it is the church, because
23
the church demands a complaint be brought to the church -
24
their story is accepted and they have the opportunity to
25
tell the whole of their story to a forum which they can
26
have trust in, and which will enable them, then, to pass,
27
as it were, some of the burden to that institution, which
28
requires, in this case, that it report, or that person
29
report.
30
31 Now, these are very significant
issues. They are not
32
small issues, they are significant issues. At the moment,
33
we are, as I say, facing the situation where we can see
34
a problem, but we do need assistance from the church in
35
what is the solution. We rather
thought that Mr Jackson
36
might be able to assist us in that respect.
37
38 I understand the reason for
compassion being extended
39
to him. I have no difficulty with
that. And for that
40
reason, I have not issued a summons requiring him to
41
attend. But at the moment we face
a serious issue with
42
which only the church can help us.
43
44 Whether that needs a response now,
I don't know, but
45
we would like you to reflect upon that situation.
46
47
MR TOKLEY: Your Honour, may I
respond on behalf of the
.04/08/2015 (152) 15677 R P SPINKS (Mr Stewart)
Transcript
produced by DTI
1
persons I represent. Your
Honour's points are being taken
2
on board, are being addressed, and are being given the most
3
earnest consideration by the authorities. Mr Jackson would
4
probably not have been of any assistance in any event,
5
because his role and his responsibility is in relation to
6
the translation of matters; it's not in relation to these
7
sorts of matters.
8
9 However, Mr O'Brien, who will give evidence
before
10
your Honour, is able to assist your Honour in regard to
11
some of the matters your Honour has raised. I can assure
12
your Honour that to the extent to which Mr O'Brien is
13
unable to assist your Honour, we will do everything that we
14
can to ensure that the Commission is given the assistance
15
that is required from us and to help the Commission.
16
17
THE CHAIR: The assumption I make
at the moment is that if
18
there is to be change, it's change that has to be
19
ultimately sanctioned, if not directed, by New York. Am
20
I right?
21
22
MR TOKLEY: Your Honour,
ultimately it is a matter for
23
submission. We understand your
Honour's point and we
24
understand your Honour's particular concern about the
25
environment in which these matters are reported. So that
26
has not been lost upon us at all.
The question, I think,
27
at the end of the day, is the adaptability of the present
28
structure to the individual circumstances of any particular
29
person and whether that present structure is inappropriate,
30
so it must be done away with, or whether the appropriate
31
structure can be modelled for the purposes of an individual
32
person's case. I think that's
probably one of the more
33
difficult questions that the Commission will have to deal
34
with at the end of the day.
35
36
THE CHAIR: It is. But if there is to be change, again,
37
I had assumed that change has to be either directed or
38
sanctioned in New York.
39
