Listener

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• 
  35

  1975 statements

  by A Believer in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  from jw org.

  “six thousand years of human existence”.

  in 1969 the watchtower magazine in czech began publishing a series of articles based on the book life everlasting—in freedom of the sons of god.

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  Listener

  A Believer, you link to a website that claims Ray Franz was behind the 1975 saga.
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  14

  Vow of Obedience and Poverty? WTF??

  by NikL in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  listener on here started a cool thread about the april 2017 wt which can be found here.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4881380162928640/watchtower-april-2017-overview.

  it got me to look at it closer and in the opening study they use terminology i've never heard used before namely, "vow of obedience and poverty".... 19 currently, there are some 67,000 members of the worldwide order of special full-time servants of jehovah’s witnesses.

  some perform bethel service, others engage in construction or in circuit work, serve as field instructors or special pioneers or missionaries or as assembly hall or bible school facility servants.

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  Listener

  Here's a link to the Vow of Obedience and Poverty 2002.
  
  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/106721/bethel-vow-poverty-documents-scanned
  
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  20

  April 2017 wt says you can't undo a dedication to God

  by poopie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if that's true then you can't say such and such is no longer aa jehovahs witnesses .

  now i'm not very educated but is this like contradictory..

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  Listener

  Tepidpoultry - What if a Kingdom Hall is dedicated to Jehovah,
  Can it be sold and then of course be used for something else, let's say a brothel?
  Maybe it can never be sold then,

  An enthusiastic field service group leaving for witnessing activity in Lusaka, Zambia. The well-maintained Kingdom Hall serves as a powerful witness to Jehovah. Watchtower April 2017

  
  Not only are these Halls dedicated to Jehovah but they 'serve as a powerful witness' to him. Why would they even think of selling?
• 
  29

  Watchtower April, 2017 Overview

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'll start with the first study article.. this study article deals with vows made to jehovah.

  three main vows are discussed.. 1) your dedication to jehovah.

  we are told that it is not possible to claim that our baptism was not valid .

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  Listener

  The next study article is headed “The Judge of All the Earth” Always Does What Is Right, however it has little to do with God’s judging.
  
  The article discusses injustices occurring within the congregation and how faithful servants are not surprised or stumbled when injustices occur and should wait on Jehovah rather than take matters into their own hands.
  
  This advice is given
  
  

  prayerful reliance on Jehovah, combined with loyalty, will prevent us from ever becoming “enraged against Jehovah.”—... he should be careful not to engage in harmful gossip. Of course, it is entirely proper to seek assistance from the elders and to inform them if a member of the congregation is guilty of a serious wrong. (Lev. 5:1) However, in many cases that do not involve serious wrongdoing, it may be possible to resolve a difference without involving anyone else, not even the elders. (Read Matthew 5:23, 24; 18:15.)

  
  Note that they use a scripture that only applied to the Israelites in support of their idea that JWs should inform on those who have committed serious sins.
  
  In the closing paragraphs we find that we are likely to blame for percieved injustices.
  
  

  At the same time, we modestly acknowledge that we likely do not have all the facts. We are keenly aware that the fault may lie in our imperfect view of matters.

  
  The next article deals in the situation where elders are at fault for injustices. These injustices include major problems such as the wrongful disfellowshipping of a husband/wife/son/daughter/close friend. The solution is to demonstrate humility.
  
  

  First, humility will move us to acknowledge that we do not have all the facts. No matter how much we know of a situation, only Jehovah can read a person’s figurative heart. (1 Sam. 16:7) Our awareness of this undeniable truth will prompt us to be humble, to recognize our limitations, and to adjust our view of the matter. Second, humility will help us to be submissive and patient as we wait on Jehovah to correct any true injustice. It is as the wise man wrote: “It will turn out well for those who fear the true God . . . , but it will not turn out well for the wicked one, nor will he prolong his days.” (Eccl. 8:12, 13) Certainly, a humble response is in the best spiritual interests of all concerned.—Read 1 Peter 5:5.

  
  Also forgiving the Elder is another solution. There is virtually no arrangements for family to discuss with Elders the reasons for their decisions and facts of the case.
  
  
  
  

  If a brother who sins against you continues to serve as an elder or even receives additional privileges, will you rejoice with him? Your willingness to forgive may well reflect Jehovah’s view of justice.—Read Matthew 6:14, 15.

  Basically servants are told to shut up and accept the abuse no matter how long it lasts.
  
  
• 
  29

  Watchtower April, 2017 Overview

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'll start with the first study article.. this study article deals with vows made to jehovah.

  three main vows are discussed.. 1) your dedication to jehovah.

  we are told that it is not possible to claim that our baptism was not valid .

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  Listener

  The next article is headed “What will go when God’s Kingdom Comes?”
  
  It’s amazing how many times the sheep need to be told what is supposed to happen but here we go again.
  
  They tell us that this wicked world is like a ‘Dead Man Walking’. Nothing like getting a bit theatrical about it all.
  
  We are then told what is included in ‘this world’ that will be passing away. They are wicked people, corrupt organizations, wrong activities, and distressful conditions.
  
  Wicked people include violent bullies, hateful bigots, and vicious criminals, The article states
  
  

  Some ofthose are openly wicked; others are impostors, hiding what they do under an appearance of righteousness. Even if we ourselves have not been victims, such wicked people still affect us. We are sickened at heart when we learn of their horrible acts. The way the wicked brutalize children, the elderly, and other defenseless ones fills us with horror. Wicked people exhibit a spirit that seems subhuman, animalistic, even demonic.

  
  Lumping hateful bigots into this is strange (violent hateful bigots are another matter) , especially when it could be shown that they themselves have been accused of this for one thing or another. Calling them demonic is pretty nasty.
  
  They make it sound that only the truelly wicked ones, who don’t change their ways will be the ones destroyed but as the article continues on it is clear that they mean all those who do not accept Jehovah’s teachings and guidance.
  
  In the next topic regarding organizations they could easily be talking about themselves in regards to deceiving followers and accruing millions of dollars whilst poor ones struggle.
  
  Regarding organizations, these questions are asked
  
  

  What will replace corrupt organizations? After Armageddon, will there be any organization on earth?... They will be replaced by what? The expression “new heavens and a new earth” means that there will be a new government and a new earthly society over which that government rules. The Kingdom under Jesus Christ will perfectly reflect the personality of Jehovah God, who is a God of order. (1 Cor. 14:33) So the “new earth” will be organized. There will be good men to care for matters. (Ps. 45: 16) They will be directed by Christ and his 144,000 corulers. Imagine a time when all corrupt organizations will be replaced by a single, unified, and incorruptible organization!

  
  Hold on, is there is going to be a new organization or will his current earthly organization just expand to include all of society? They’ve said in the past that Jesus is leader over this earthly organization. They talk as if this current earthly organization will be replaced by a new society yet the “New World Society” is supposed to already be in existence.
  
  We are told what sort of activities will replace the bad activities of this current world.
  
  

  The Paradise earth will be bustling with happy activity

  
  The world will be a wonderful paradise but sadly we are informed that it may be that locks and keys will still be required
  
  

  And with crime gone, there will be no security industry, no alarm systems, no police forces, perhaps no locks or keys!

  
  No doubt the earthly leaders will want to lock those new scrolls away from prying eyes or their organizational manuals.
  
  The study article ends by telling us that salvation can only be assured by staying close to the organization.
  
  

  do everything in your power to stay close to Jehovah God and his organization during these stressful last days!..... That way, you can be sure that you will not pass away with this condemned old world
• 
  29

  Watchtower April, 2017 Overview

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'll start with the first study article.. this study article deals with vows made to jehovah.

  three main vows are discussed.. 1) your dedication to jehovah.

  we are told that it is not possible to claim that our baptism was not valid .

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  Listener

  I'll start with the first study article.
  
  

  This study article deals with vows made to Jehovah. Three main vows are discussed.

  1) Your dedication to Jehovah. We are told that it is not possible to claim that our baptism was not valid
  
  

  There is no way to undo a dedication vow, taking back what we promised God. If a person tires of serving Jehovah or of living a Christian way of life, he cannot claim that he was never really dedicated and that his baptism was invalid. To all intents and purposes, he presented himself as one who was wholly dedicated to God. He will be accountable before Jehovah and the congregation for any serious sins that he may commit. (Rom. 14:12) Considering the steps that the elders take to be sure that a person is qualified for baptism, it would be extremely rare for anyone’s baptism to be invalid.

  
  Naturally Romans 14:12 talks about us being accountable to God. They do not quote any scripture that supports the idea that we are accountable to the congregation for serious sins committed. The text also explains that Elders are able to read minds in the majority of cases.
  
  2)The marriage vow. We are once again told the only grounds for divorce
  
  

  Jesus taught that the only Scriptural ground for dissolving a marriage vow is when an innocent mate chooses not to forgive an adulterous partner. (Matt 19:9

  
  The Bible mentions nothing about not forgiving an adulterous partner, only that adultery is grounds for divorce.
  
  They then discuss separation. However, they do not set the rules here since the Bible does not set the rules. Instead they tell us what some Christians personally decide are grounds.
  
  

  The Bible does not set out grounds for marital separation. However, some married Christians have viewed certain situations as a reason for separation, such as the extreme endangerment of one’s life or spirituality by an abusive or apostate spouse.

  
  By all appearances they seemed to have eased up about making rules about when separation could be considered. The Watchtower 1990 4/1 made it clear that there were rules.
  
  

  And while there are extreme cases where divorce or separation might be allowed, the Bible says that in general the marriage bond is for life.

  
  

  This may be the first time that they have mentioned that individuals separate due to extreme endangerment of one’s spirituality by an apostate spouse. Given the number of JW that so freely separate due to apostasy, there must be a lot of JWs who are so shaky and vulnerable in regards to their spirituality. This reflects very badly on the organization.
  
  3)The vow of special full time servants. These slaves are reminded of their non biblical vow that they signed.
  
  

  They are all bound by a “Vow of Obedience and Poverty,” with which they agree to do whatever is assigned to them in the advancement of Kingdom interests, to live a simple lifestyle, and to abstain from secular employment without permission. It is not the people but their assignments that are viewed as special.

  
  Of course these slaves shouldn’t think of themselves as special, it is only their organizational work that is special.
  
  Shockingly they claim that this vow (which clearly lists the legal entity under which the promise is made to) is not to this organization but it is to God.
  
  

  The failure to keep one’s word to Jehovah and to pay a vow may have serious consequences.

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• 
  27

  Article - Wales - Daily Post: 'Sly' Anglesey Jehovah's Witness preacher jailed for sex with a child

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/sly-anglesey-jehovahs-witness-preacher-12361109.

  dec. 22, 2016 by derek bellis.

  elder, daniel anglesey pleaded guilty at caernarfon crown court and was sent to prison for two years and eight months.

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  Listener

  I can only imagine how the girl was treated by the Elders since they were dealing with the 'sin'. It can't be good because the family are considering moving.

  The courts are very protective of children's privacy in these matters but she probably had no choice about the matter with the Elders dealing with it.
• 
  56

  need to "stay alive to xx75" to prove wt wrong? again?

  by prologos in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  you dont have be alive to 2075 to prove that the wt's anointed generation is and will prove to be wrong, it is!

  and you can do it now, by asking just one question:.

  does the "generation" prophecy of math.

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  Listener

  Sparky1 is correct. Thank you Prologos for expressing your thoughts, I did some research as well and came up with the following.
  
  Their current interpretation of 'this generation' is so whacky that it would be better to focus on that rather than their timeline (GT, rest of Anointed dying and Armageddon).
  
  With their previous interpretation of 'this generation' they have said the following. Also, they hardly acknowledge that it was their own interpretation but coming from Jesus.

  W 51 7/1
  The length of time is indicated by him when he said, “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matt. 24:34, NW) The actual meaning of these words is, beyond question, that which takes a “generation” in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period
  W 61 4/15
  The foretold events having begun A.D. 1914, the generation of mankind that is still alive from that year is the generation meant by Jesus Christ
  W62 3/1
  The generation that sees the start of these foretold events, Jesus showed, would live to see the end.

  
  However, I do appreciate why you are coming up with your current thoughts. That is probably because in their past interpretation they made it clear that 'this generation' included those that would pass away at Armageddon but also those that would survive through Armageddon.
  
  There is a lengthy discussion through a QFR W 78 10/1 that includes this idea.
  
  

  Jesus said “this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” Which generation is this, and how long is it?

  When Jesus’ apostles asked for a “sign” about his presence and the conclusion of the system of things, he gave his famous prophecy about coming wars, famines, earthquakes and the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom before the end. (Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 21) He also said: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”—Matt. 24:34.

  Based on the Bible and its fulfillment in history, Jehovah’s Witnesses have often pointed out that Christ’s prophecy was to have two applications: First, between 33 C.E. and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.; second, a larger fulfillment in this “time of the end” since 1914 C.E.

  However, some Bible commentators have failed to appreciate the dual aspect of this prophecy. So they have held that by the term “generation” Jesus meant a race or people, such as the Jewish people or the class of wicked humans existing through the centuries. They might even refer to 1 Peter 2:9, which, in the Authorized Version, speaks of the anointed Christian congregation as “a chosen generation.” However, Bible scholars now recognize that the Greek word in 1 Peter 2:9 should be rendered “race” and is different from the word rendered “generation” in Matthew 24:34.

  Jesus was not referring to a race of people over the centuries or just to Christians. He was first of all referring to his listeners and other Jews at that time. An indication of this is the fact that earlier that day, when condemning the Jewish religious leaders, Jesus spoke of their murdering the prophets and said: “All these things will come upon this generation.” (Matt. 23:36) These words came true on the contemporary generation when in 70 C.E. the Jews in Jerusalem faced its fiery destruction. (Luke 3:16, 17) That also marked the ‘conclusion of the Jewish system of things’ in the first fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy.

  This helps us to understand “generation” in Matthew 24:34. In common English usage today “generation” might be used for (1) all persons who were born and who live about the same time, or (2) the average span between the birth of parents and that of their children, usually 20 to 30 years. Which did Jesus mean? Obviously not the latter, for in its first application the “generation” ran from 33 C.E. until 70 C.E., or at least 37 years.

  Also, it is evident that by the word “generation” Jesus did not mean just the Jewish children born in 33 C.E. Luke relates that after being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom was coming, Jesus told his disciples: “[The Son of man] must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation.” (Luke 17:20-25) That rejection certainly was not by newborn babies. Likewise, the way things worked out shows that the “generation” he spoke of in Matthew 24:34 included his listeners and others who could discern the fulfillment of his words from 33 C.E. onward until Jerusalem’s destruction.

  Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the “generation” logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ’s followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus’ composite “sign.” Some of such persons “will by no means pass away until” all of what Christ prophesied occurs, including the end of the present wicked system.

  Jesus did not encourage his followers to try to calculate the exact length of this “generation.” (Ps. 90:10) Instead of trying to figure how many more years, at the maximum, there may be until the end, Christians should remember Jesus’ warning: “Keep on the watch . . . because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Matt. 24:42-44.

  
  

  
  

  
  Now they have created a new problem. If 'this generation' means that the overlapping group of anointed will pass away during the GT but before Armageddon then the GT could last for decades (or even Centuries).
  
  I hadn't picked up on this point before until you brought this topic up Prologos. This in effect means that 'this generation' teaching has no bearing on when Armageddon is to take place, unless it can be determined how long the Great Tribulation will last.
  
  If we look at their discussion in the 2014 Watchtower headed with the title "Let your kingdom come - but when?" it now becomes obvious that they are only talking about 'this generation' indicating a time during the GT, not Armageddon itself.
  
  Under the sub heading of This Generation they say
  
  

  THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY
  14-16. What is a third reason for believing that God’s Kingdom will “come” soon?
  14 There is yet a third reason for confidence. What has developed among God’s people points to the nearness of the end. For example, prior to the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven, a group of faithful anointed ones were actively serving God. When some of their expectations about what would happen in 1914 did not come about, what did they do? Most of them proved their integrity under trials and persecution and kept right on serving Jehovah. Over the years, most—if not all—of those anointed ones have faithfully completed their earthly course.
  15 In his detailed prophecy about the conclusion of this system of things, Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (Read Matthew 24:33-35.) We understand that in mentioning “this generation,” Jesus was referring to two groups of anointed Christians. The first group was on hand in 1914, and they readily discerned the sign of Christ’s presence in that year. Those who made up this group were not merely alive in 1914, but they were spirit-anointed as sons of God in or before that year.—Rom. 8:14-17.
  16 The second group included in “this generation” are anointed contemporaries of the first group. They were not simply alive during the lifetime of those in the first group, but they were anointed with holy spirit during the time that those of the first group were still on earth. Thus, not every anointed person today is included in “this generation” of whom Jesus spoke. Today, those in this second group are themselves advancing in years. Yet, Jesus’ words at Matthew 24:34 give us confidence that at least some of “this generation will by no means pass away” before seeing the start of the great tribulation. This should add to our conviction that little time remains before the King of God’s Kingdom acts to destroy the wicked and usher in a righteous new world.—2 Pet. 3:13.
  
  

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• 
  18

  Does anyone have any fashion sense? Getting Married. Help?

  by RavenPearl in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am a man and i have roughly 10 months to prepare for my wedding (including raising the funds etc... my fiance is caught up in her affairs associated with the wedding.

  now i do have a pretty good sense of fashion when it comes to 'dress to impress' when required.

  however, i'm not familiar with specific clothing lines.

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  Listener

  raven pearl thanks for clearing that up.

  You will need to think about colour coordinating with your wife.

  Go to some fashionable boutiques and try a variety of clothes on. Take some photos discreetly. They often won't let you do this so you might have to take the photos in the change room. Note the material. Your body shape has to be taken into account and you won't get the overall picture of what looks sauve on you if you can't see it on yourself. Also sit down with the outfit on.

  The Wedding outfit you are going to wear is charming and I agree with your fiancée, you will look like a prince.

  From a females perspective, she will remember how you looked on this special day forever. It is a lovely gesture, all the thought you are putting into it.
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  18

  Does anyone have any fashion sense? Getting Married. Help?

  by RavenPearl in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am a man and i have roughly 10 months to prepare for my wedding (including raising the funds etc... my fiance is caught up in her affairs associated with the wedding.

  now i do have a pretty good sense of fashion when it comes to 'dress to impress' when required.

  however, i'm not familiar with specific clothing lines.

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  Listener

  The person you should be talking to is your fiance, do you really intend to upset her within an hour of getting married?