Posts by Listener

24

My new answer to an annoying question we have all been asked.

by doubtfull1799 in

well new to me anyway, i'm sure someone smarter than me has thought of this before.

the next time i get asked the perennial (and tired old) question: “but you do believe that the gb are god’s channel of communication, the organisation he is using, don’t you?” or some variation thereof, i am going to reply with two verses and reason as follows:.

the matter to be established: have the gb of jehovah’s witnesses received divine appointment to act as god’s representatives and channel of communication on earth?.

Listener

They attempt to support their claim of being the FDS in the Feb 2017 Watchtower.

WHO REALLY IS THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE?”
12. Since the Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible, what questions arise?
12 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. So how can we answer Jesus’ question: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” (Matt. 24:45) What evidence is there that the Governing Body is filling that role? Let us consider the same three factors that directed the governing body in the first century.
13. How has holy spirit helped the Governing Body?
13 Evidence of holy spirit. The holy spirit has helped the Governing Body to grasp Scriptural truths not previously understood. For example, reflect on the list of beliefs clarified that was referred to in the preceding paragraph. Surely, no human deserves credit for discovering and explaining these “deep things of God”! (Read 1 Corinthians 2:10.) The Governing Body echoes the apostle Paul, who wrote: “These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit.” (1 Cor. 2:13) After centuries of apostasy and spiritual darkness, can anything other than holy spirit explain the rapid increase in spiritual understanding since 1919?
14. According to Revelation 14:6, 7, how do angels assist God’s people today?
14 Evidence of angelic assistance. The Governing Body today has the colossal task of overseeing an international preaching work involving over eight million evangelizers. Why has that work been so successful? For one, angels are involved. (Read Revelation 14:6, 7.) In many cases, publishers have called on individuals who had just been praying for help! * The overall growth of the preaching and disciple-making work despite fierce opposition in some lands has likewise been possible only with superhuman assistance.
15. What contrast exists between the Governing Body and Christendom’s leaders? Give an example.
15 Reliance on God’s Word. (Read John 17:17.) Consider what occurred in 1973. The June 1 issue of The Watchtower asked the question: “Do . . . persons who have not broken their addiction to tobacco qualify for baptism?” The answer was: “The Scriptural evidence points to the conclusion that they do not.” After citing several relevant scriptures, The Watchtower explained why an unrepentant smoker should be disfellowshipped. (1 Cor. 5:7; 2 Cor. 7:1) It said: “This represents no effort to act in an arbitrary, dictatorial manner. The strictness really proceeds from God, who expresses himself through his written Word.” Has any other religious organization been willing to rely fully on God’s Word, even when doing so presents a real challenge to some of its members? A recent book on religion in the United States notes: “Christian leaders have regularly revised their teachings to match the beliefs and opinions gaining support among their members and in the larger society.” If those of the Governing Body allow God’s Word rather than popular opinion to guide their decisions, who is really leading God’s people today?

16

The Guardian: In Russia, the persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses begins all over again

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2017/mar/09/in-russia-the-persecution-of-jehovahs-witnesses-begins-all-over-again.

in russia, the persecution of jehovah’s witnesses begins all over again.

giles fraser.

Listener

How easy is it to get out of Russia these days? Especially with the backing of the Watchtower with their millions of dollars. The Watchtower is fully aware of the problems that exist in Russia, they are also geared up to provide emergency aid. Maybe they can do a lot more.

13

ARC Case Study 54 - List all media reports here for future reference

by jwleaks in

http://www.smh.com.au/national/inside-the-jehovahs-witnesses-a-perfect-storm-for-abuse-20170309-guukur.html .

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2017/03/10/jehovah-s-witnesses-to-face-abuse-inquiry.html .

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/03/10/03/31/uniting-church-witnesses-focus-of-inquiry .

Listener

Thanks JW Facts. They are certainly making a mess of it all and putting the victim first is not on their agenda.

11

Don’t share food with apostate—what about air we all breathe in?

by venus in

we have heard: “don’t share food with apostate.” what about sharing the air we all breathe in?

whether apostate or believer, both breathe in the same air (which is more important than food)!.

today i put this question to the couple who came to invite me for the memorial.

Listener

Good point Venus.

They shun df'd and da'd JWs and they say it is to keep the congregation clean. Yet they are allowed to share religious activities with JWs, such as in song, prayer and spiritual food. You are right in that they also allow ex JWs to share in their most sacred and holy night, the memorial.

It becomes obvious that df'ing is all about control.

5

RC - Discussion on proposed Aust. Branch Child Abuse Policy Doc

by Listener in

from angus stewarts opening statement case study 54. this week watchtower australia furnished to the royal commission a document titled child safeguarding policy of jehovah’s witnesses in australia.

it is understood to be a recently adopted policy for distribution to congregations in australia.

there will be evidence about this document.

Listener

From Angus Stewarts Opening Statement Case Study 54

This week Watchtower Australia furnished to the Royal Commission a
document titled Child Safeguarding Policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses in
Australia. It is understood to be a recently adopted policy for distribution
to congregations in Australia. There will be evidence about this document.

This document was discussed, at length and on two separate occassions, during the Case Study 54 Hearing at the Royal Commission 10 March, 2017. I thought it might be worthwhile discussing it as it is probably one of the very few changes the Org. has made due to the work of the RC.

We learnt that this was presented to the Commission as a final Draft with just minor amendments being required. The Branch Office started work on this policy some time after October 2016 according to O'Brien but immediately after the first hearing in 2015 according to Sprinks (who also advised that there had been reps from World HQ at the first hearing advising they were involved also). It was provided to the Royal Commission early this week by Lawyers.

Spinks claims that they had to work quickly on the Policy in order to present it to the current RC hearing but he could not advised when the Policy was in a form that only minor adjustments were required. Spinks refers to it as a 'living document' (pretty much like every word they've written).

It is based on the UK Policy document but the Australian Branch wanted specific inclusions which were granted.

This Policy is to be made available to every member of the congregations in Australia.

Angus Stewart made several references to this Policy during the hearing and was not satisfied with it, pointing out a number of problems that had not been properly addressed.

Also of concern to him was the following and the includes the responses by O'Brien and Spinks.

- How soon would it be given to members. He was advised that it was expected to be finalized in the next week or two and distributed in the next week or so having been approved by the Aust Branch Office.

- In what form would it be made available to members of the congregations.. He was given no specifics about this other than it would be made available online, through the mailing system to each congregation or it would be in printed form. The Branch Office gets to make this decision and obviously the 'mens club' must having great difficulties in deciding on this because it's been discussed for many months and still no decision has been made. Either way, assurances were given by Spinks that it would be available to all congregation members (in Australia)

- Making it available is of some concern, would it be made available to JW members without having to actively ask for it. Spinks (being from the Service Dept.) was not clear on this and it is up to someone else to determine this (Branch Committee or HQ?) but Spinks did say that the intention (the service desks intention?) that all members will be made aware of it and will have access to it.

- The Policy document includes statements that advise JWs what their rights are and need to be accessible by all JWs. Spinks and O'Brien agreed.

- would there be any changes to the 'Organized to do Jehovah's Will'? Stewart was told that they were unaware of any changes being planned. Since the Organized Book is available worldwide and the Policy is not it would not be surprising to see Stewart make a conclusion in his report that the Organization is not really interested in protecting children and improving policies because they have not made this Policy available worldwide and only do so when pushed, such as in the UK. The org. have only formulated any policies when pressured and only for a limited audience.

Outside Australia JWs are still left with only an ad hoc range of publications discussing child abuse and they do not include what rights they have or can expect.

Since this Policy will be made available to all JWs in Australia, I wonder what the reaction and thoughts will be by Australian JWs.. Since there are very few 'special' Policies currently written this document is going to have to stand out and bring to their attention the issue of child abuse within their organization. (By 'special' documents I mean ones like the Blood Policy, Divorce and Children and complicated donation arrangements).

It will be worth discussing this policy with JWs, whether Australian or not and particularly why this is only available to Australian JWs and not worldwide.

13

ARC Case Study 54 - List all media reports here for future reference

by jwleaks in

http://www.smh.com.au/national/inside-the-jehovahs-witnesses-a-perfect-storm-for-abuse-20170309-guukur.html .

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2017/03/10/jehovah-s-witnesses-to-face-abuse-inquiry.html .

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/03/10/03/31/uniting-church-witnesses-focus-of-inquiry .

Listener

From the guardian article

O’Brien said hundreds were reported, although not by the organisation because it was left to the elders handling the case or the parents.

I am confused about this and wonder if this is exactly what O'Brien said. The RC reported that not one case of over 1,006 abusers were reported by the organization, does this mean that there were cases reported by Elders? I would have thought that the Commission would have viewed any reports made by Elders as having been made by the Organization.

27

Talked to a JW at a literature stand today

by nevermind in

guys,.

i need your help in trying to wrap my head around this strange experience i had today talking with a jw lady sitting at a literature table in a busy outdoor shopping center.. i'm a very shy person, but i always wanted to ask these jws at their literature stands questions to start them thinking about the validity of watchtower teaching.

i finally mustered my strength today to talk to this jw lady.

Listener

Good on you Nevermind for your courage and especially for discussing a number of topics.

Her answers do not surprise me and it is the denial that you often see in JWs, not always to this extent though. Once you've done your research it becomes so obvious just how brainwashed they are. If you ever have doubts about being an apostate one of the best ways to confirm that you're not wrong in your thinking is by questioning a JW.

95

Who can explain why the "Two Witness" rule is wrong, in the simplest term?

by DATA-DOG in

with all the legalese being tossed around, and the expert manipulation on the part of the wtbts, who can explain why the "two witness" is being perverted by the wtbts?

i don't care if you're a bible believer and want to approach this from a biblical standpoint, or if you simply use logic and reason.

how would you explain this subject to a j-dub, or even a non-dub?.

Listener

The two witness rule is not wrong as such but JWs interpretation of what or who those two witnesses should consist of is wrong and is not consistent. The organization generally require that there be two witnesses but they go further in saying that they must be eyewitnesses (in most but not all cases) and credible witnesses.

The two witness rule is used by the JWs only as part of their own internal judicial system, to establish sin for disciplinary action of the one committing the sin but has a number of negative consequences.

Their own two witness rule leaves them with the dilemma of not being able to report an accusation (unless required by law) when they cannot take any action themselves. It not only looks hypocritical but allows the law of the land to trump their own laws.

--------

Angus Stewart pointed out at the hearing yesterday that Geoff Jackson said there may be room for circumstantial or co-oberating evidence to be considered (as a second witness), for instance, the trauma suffered by a victim. He asked if it had even been considered and since no change had been made to the two witness rule, Stewart's deduction was that Jackson was incorrect in saying that there may be a role in the first instance. The two puppets at the hearing had no idea as to whether it had been considered or not.

49

ARC Case Study 54 - Witness List published for 10 March 2017

by jwleaks in

http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/case-study/10908a67-70c5-4103-94cc-dac096fdb585/case-study-54,-march-2017,-sydney.

.

Listener

That's up to the organisation to put those allegations forward, they are given the opportunity of having their own lawyers there to speak up. They are also given the opportunity of responding in writing to findings. They had nothing to say, so there's no need for the Government to make any decision on the matter of mocking unless the allegation is put forward to them.

You're right fisherman, it is no kangaroo court - nothing like a JW judicial committee.

32

Baptism at 10 years of age! March 2017 broadcast

by stuckinarut2 in

(i wanted to put this in the child abuse section of the forum!).

we have seen that during the march 2017 broadcast, m stephen lett has openly praised children who get baptised as young as 10!.

so lets summarize why it is wrong to push child baptism (not far off "infant baptism" that jws condemn other churches for).

Listener

When they discussed those disassociating as being an adult or close to adulthood they were probably being correct. That is the absurdity of the situation.

How is an 11 year old going to dissassociate or even have the comprehension of what that is? Just imagine the reaction of the parents to say the least.