Posts by Listener

22

Witnessing to two JW elders

by Roger Kirkpatrick in

i was approached by two jehovah’s witness elders who handed me a pamphlet advertising the jw .org website.

each man carried a bible and an apple ipad.

they told me that they enjoyed visiting with people about the bible, and asked if i was a bible reader.

That was excellent Roger.

That's fine if they didn't have a response to your points there and then but if they were really genuine they would have no problem saying that they would get back to you and when they did get back, they'd have a reasonable explanation. The Watchtower has written book after book after book, for over 100 years, the answer has got to be somewhere.

The points regarding the Sanctuary is not new to the Watchtower but they still haven't taken the time to explain why they are right. As regards the point about the GC being 'spirit begotten sons' due to their being in the sanctuary, I hadn't heard that before so appreciate you mentioning it.

36

William Malenfant's appalling hate speech - latest morning worship video

by doubtfull1799 in

so he tries to prove that we are living in the last days without any evidence, but instead a series of unsubstantiated assertions ("never has there been a time with so much lack love and affection").

and uses things that are not even part of the so-called "sign" (abortions, pollution).

then proceeds to ridicule the "ridiculers," stereotype them, and declare they are only fit for destruction!.

Listener

They can't hold onto members so he's gnashing his teeth.

He quotes from a 2012 Watchtower, why not one from 1914? His message of the last days wouldn't seem so urgent.

He talks about abortion and the lack of natural affection but how many thousands have they talked into not having children, smothering their natural human inclinations?

What else is in his Witches brew other than frogs? At least he can find a few crusty loaves to enjoy it with.

All this from a preacher who couldn't even give a modern day example of sinning against the Holy Spirit in a previous sermon.

13

JW Cart encounter

by Listener in

i've seen very few carts in western australia.

the only one i have seen is near the front entrance of the perth royal hospital and on the several occasions that i have seen it, they are there all day, at least during the week.

i've stopped and had long conversations twice now and both times when i have approached them they've told me to take whatever publications interest me and then we've started talking.this last visit i brought up the royal commission.

Listener

I've seen very few carts in Western Australia. The only one I have seen is near the front entrance of the Perth Royal Hospital and on the several occasions that I have seen it, they are there all day, at least during the week.

I've stopped and had long conversations twice now and both times when I have approached them they've told me to take whatever publications interest me and then we've started talking.

This last visit I brought up the Royal Commission. There was an Elder and another JW in his 40s. The JW was quick to tell me how the Commission praised them for being so organized. In fact they were the most organized of all organizations because they had copious notes prepared and lists of details.

I pointed out that they were the worst organization in handling child abuse. Naturally I was told that it was only the opinion of the Commission.

We had a long discussion. I was told how the cases presented were over 40 years old and little was known about pedophilia then, by anyone. I explained that the JW organization was very different because they have the best guidance ever, the Bible and supposedly were guided by God's HS and surely there was no need to look at how others were handling matters. Maybe it was an indication that they were misunderstanding the Bible in dealing with matters.

They brought up the two Witness rule and how it was good in that it protected them, this was after telling me earlier on that their priority was in protecting the victim. I brought up the old testament account of the woman in the field, they had nothing to say.

I was shocked by a number of things they had to say. One of them was when the Elder told me that the victim may be lying. I didn't deny this but I asked him, is that why there are times that the Elders do nothing? He said possibly. I again made my initial point that it was so important to have cases reported to police. The JW thought this was the case and that they were encouraged to do so but the Elder finally told him that they are told to call the Branch for instructions.

At one stage the Elder mentioned that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't in certain areas. I said that he made it sound like their hands were tied behind their back but it needn't be so if they encouraged reporting.

The Elder said that he is disturbed by the idea that 'once a pedophile, always a pedophile'. I replied that we should always be on guard and take actions to ensure the safety of children on this basis. He mentioned the idea again and said how disturbing it was. I was really upset about this and I think his attitude was, because as his position as an Elder they want to put a persons past behind if they appear to be repentant. I said it is not up to us to forgive anyone and that is for God to do (he agreed) and putting in place cautionary actions was appropriate. I went into a deeper discussion with him because of this attitude (even though I'm a female talking to two males and would rather not go there). He said that we all make mistakes and let our guard down at times. I said that it is one thing for a man to have sex with a 15 or 16 year old but a completely different matter for that to happen to a young child (5 or 6). It went far beyond an indiscretion when a child was involved, it was evil and twisted and required a very sick mind to do this. We can't comprehend why such a sick mind would do this in the first place. Even though it is not true that all pedophiles will repeat their evilness there is enough reason to be on guard. Thankfully, he conceded on this idea and hopefully I've got him to reconsider his way of thinking. But obviously there's a big problem here if this is the way he thought and the Watchtower has chosen not to discuss the idea of repeat offenders even though they may have been accepted as repentant, it really makes you ask what are they hiding.

At one stage the Elder explained how he was lucky to be brought up in the Truth and how happy he was with his family situation. This was a thread throughout our discussions of how the organization is the best place to be but I thought it would be a good idea to bring up the shunning policy and how the organization isn't such a wonderful place to be when it breaks up families. I related how it had damaged my family growing up and now it was causing the same damage with my very in sister, who was now shunning her son. I explained how horrible shunning was and particularly whent this happened between family members. The Elder related the 'bad apple' analogy. I said that the organization had every right to kick members out if they chose to. He politely said that I was very confusing because I had previously said how I thought it was wrong. I explained there was a big difference between shunning a person and throwing them out of the congregation. That a disfellowshipped person could still attend meetings whenever they chose, sharing in worshiping by singing and praying with the congregation, whereas shunning meant that a family member could not even make contact to ensure everything was okay or have a friendly cup of coffee together. He didn't have much to say and I said that I hoped they would once again 'flip flop' on their stance, explaining how they had done so in the past.

We must have talked for at least an hour and when it came to say a friendly good bye, I thanked them for taking the time to discuss issues. The JW, who had been difficult to talk to all the way through said 'well that was a waste of time', even though not ten minutes earlier he said that I knew more about their history than he did and he had been a JW for years. Had I encountered this JW alone and not the Elder I wouldn't have engaged in more than five minutes of discussion and I said to him that I didn't think it was a waste of time because it was good to understand another persons point of view.

Funny but the JW was pining on getting into a discussion about the Trinity and I could see he was only too ready to rip me apart if I believed in the idea. We did discuss it a little but I wasn't willing to go there. The Elder asked me if I thought the Holy Spirit was an 'individual' I said no, that it flows from God but I also thought that it was being used by Jesus as well, however I was still learning and researching this. The Elder said something along the lines that this may well be right, that it was something worth considering. I was very surprised about this.

19

Trump moves against paedophiles

by zeb in

jw
friends

on the alex jones radio program (yes we get it here via emails) just recently he highlighted that president trump has cleared the way fro action against paedophiles.

i was unable to cut and past the item.. two things here.

cut and paste please.

Listener

Simon - Waving tiny hands and saying "it's bad, trust me, it's reeeeally bad, losers" isn't a plan.

The Watchtower seems to think it is.

22

The Rank Hypocrisy of JW Rank and File

by steve2 in

wtf?

russian jw mr novik is shown in full view on jw org wearing the "parental glory" badge with its prominent cross pattee on his lapel - and not one word of caution is sounded.

similarly, jw forums are abuzz singing the praises of mr and mrs novik and their brood after they received the parental glory honor from no less than jw-oppressor, mr putin.. from the stinking gb heaven all the way down to the dusty rank and file, the hypocrisy is sky-high.

Listener

Waton - Local historic preservation laws may have prevented removing these old decorations' I always felt a kind of detachment, as a guest in a museum, in theses premises.

I was sitting in a boardroom of a Government office and when we were having our morning tea one of those in attendance was telling us that the room we were sitting in had been boarded over. Underneath was some very expensive marble work. It was felt that it was inappropriate to have such extravagance on display but it would have been crazy to remove all the marble work. The boards could easily be removed without damaging the original works in the future when the Government Department moved out.

Even if the Organization couldn't remove certain works, there is probably a way that they can hide them from being on display.

15

Watchtower Lost Lopez Summary Judgement

by John Davis in

superior court of california,.

minute order.

time: 10:00:00 am.

Listener

By defending this case the Watchtower is making a public and legal claim that it can hire to a position of Elder, anybody they like, including a known child molester and this is what they did. Don't they see how badly they compromise themselves in defending their actions?

47

Putin presents the Order of Parental Glory to a Russian Jehovah's Witness family

by OrphanCrow in

jw
friends

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/54643.

presenting the order of parental gloryon the eve of international children’s day, vladimir putin presented the order of parental glory to parents of large families.

the recipients included families from astrakhan and yaroslavl regions, the republics of karelia, buryatia, north ossetia-alania, perm and primorye territories, and khanty-mansi autonomous area – yugra.the order of parental glory was established by a presidential executive order signed in may 2008 and is awarded to parents (or adoptive parents) raising 7 or more children and ensuring due care for their health, education, and physical, spiritual and moral development.

Listener

Given that all Governments around the World interfere with our lives, that was a very disrespectful statement. He should have been more to the point.

Welcome to the forum Freelikeabird.

23

Is there anything recent in the publications about Jesus only being the ransom for annointed?

by NikL in

i was trying to find something recent that i can show "still ins" in my sphere but it is proving harder than anticipated.. most of what i am seeing is couched in confusing goblygook wt style prattle.. my wife argues that it's not even true and i think that's the case with most jaydubs.. so i guess if it is a teaching that is being allowed to fade, maybe it's not worth pursuing?.

any of you scholars out there got anything recent clear and handy?.

Listener

NikL the teaching is still current as it has not been withdrawn so any old mag that makes the claim is proof unless a JW can show you that there is 'new light' on this teaching and there is none to date.

Still, they do have a problem with reading their own old literature. Therefore you can direct them to the Insight Book under mediator.

In part it states this

"Those for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is “one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called “might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance” (Heb 9:15)"

Most JWs will argue that since they pray through the name of Jesus, he is therefore, without doubt, their mediator. However, the Insight book clarifies their position on this. Jesus has two roles, that of the mediator and also as High Priest. Basically, they say that Jesus acts as mediator through the New Covenant with spiritual Israelites (the anointed). When praying through him in prayer, he is acting in his role as High Priest and therefore both anointed and non anointed are able to do this.

The same Insight Book information under mediator states this

"There are, thus, others not of the 144,000 “sealed” ones who also pray to Jehovah God in the name of Christ, putting faith in the merit of his ransom sacrifice. This sacrifice is not only for those for whom Jesus mediates the new covenant but also for all mankind expressing faith in Christ. (1Jo 2:2) These not in the new covenant also appreciate that “there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” (Ac 4:12) They, too, look to Jesus Christ as their great heavenly High Priest, through whom they can approach God and through whose ministration they can get forgiveness of sin. (Heb 4:14-16)"

There's a Youtuber, Bridget Azaz that called Bethel to confirm that this is still their current teaching and she was told that it is. There are some Elders who do understand their concept.

9

Legalities around summarising Ray Franz's book 'Crisis of Conscience'

by UnshackleTheChains in

just looking for some advice.

i know there has been a lot of discussion around the book 'crisis of conscience' and copyright infringement on this forum.

hence the reason for my question.. in 2004, i couldn't believe my luck in finding this book in the city library.

Listener

Unshackle, fi you send a draft to the copyright holder make sure you put a copyright statement on your own draft. so that your rights to your work cannot be misused.

36

How ballroom dancing helped our exit

by Finally Left in

just wanted to say hello and thank you for all of your comments.

when i finally figured out this was not the truth it was nice to know i wasn't the only one - it was a surprise to learn how many there are.

february was my last month of service after 43 active years.

Listener

Welcome Finally Left and thanks for sharing your story. It's wonderful that you could both come out together.

You are sharing some valuable information. Taking up a hobby and getting to know some other nice people I think is important. Also sharing with them that you were JWs and their shunning policy was a very good idea. Some of us have been embarrassed to tell others our JW experiences but it is surprising how supportive worldly people can be even though they don't fully understand the issues we have to deal with.

I'm looking forward to hearing more.