Thanks for the link Mephis.
Excellent job Paul, it's amazing how much information you conveyed in under 9 minutes.
Listener
JoinedPosts by Listener
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61
Jwfacts tv appearance
by sparrowdown inshout out to jwfacts.. just saw the drum.
excellent job !
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My thoughts on Geoffrey Jackson
by thedepressedsoul infirst off, i don't think that dude is going to show face.
he's most likely on a plane already.
if he shows it's bad pr and if he doesn't show it's bad pr.
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Listener
It seemed to work that way. Most of the time the Elders pointed to the Branch Office as being the authority that they get their direction from. O'Brien who is from the Branch Committee tried to suggest that they had authority to work outside of the direction/procedures provided to them from the Headquarters.
I don't doubt that the direction they got from HQ regarding the RC was "Leave us out of it Brothers as best you can."
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My thoughts on Geoffrey Jackson
by thedepressedsoul infirst off, i don't think that dude is going to show face.
he's most likely on a plane already.
if he shows it's bad pr and if he doesn't show it's bad pr.
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Listener
It would be helpful to the Commission if they understood that Geoffrey Jackson as a Governing Body member does not authorize policy and procedure and it is only when he and other Governing Body members unite together that this is done.
I bet the Governing Body are sorry now that they clarified the workings of the FDS only recently by making it clear that it is only the GB members working together that constitute the FDS whereas when they first introduced the new doctrine in 2013 they were not so clear.
Here is the latest clarity on the FDS from Watchtower 2015 3/15 pages 7 -11
<<6 Third, consider some of our recent refinements in understanding. For example, our clarified understanding of “the faithful and discreet slave,” published in the July 15, 2013, Watchtower, thrilled us. (Matt. 24:45-47) It was explained that the faithful slave is the Governing Body, while the “domestics” are all those who are fed spiritually, whether of the anointed or of the “other sheep.” (John 10:16) What a delight it is to learn such truths and to teach them to new ones! In what other ways has Jehovah shown that he approves of teaching in a simple, clear way?>>
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2015202?q=faithful+%26+discreet+slave+governing+body&p=par
It would be helpful for the Commission to understand the concept because if they ask Jackson a question regarding his authority he will answer that he has no authority, if they ask him whether the FDS does then he is more likely to give a much different answer.
For instance, they might ask him 'Do you have authority to make changes to the religions understanding of the two witness rule (or the composition of the JC etc.) He would answer No, he did not. If they were to ask him the same question but instead said "Does the Faithful Slave have the authority etc.
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Listener
Sabin, I agree with what you are saying but from a JW perspective they would not view the disfellowshipped person as a victim and even if they did they would consider that it was self inflicted. In the JW world, to think this way, that is, being a victim would be seen as a selfish and egotistical rather than mildly accepting the situation as a discipline. 'Shunning' is an action and it is what a JW does, it focuses more on their actions. -
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If Jackson is not available due to compassionate reasons, can other GB member take his place?
by Viva la Vida ini would think the only christian organization on this planet would be more than willingly send another gb member to australia in order to answer rcs questions, taking the place of jackson who is taking care of his ill farther.
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if someone should show compassion to jackson those are his gb pals.
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Listener
Viva La Vida, the Commission discussed the situation with the JW lawyer on Tuesday. They said that they were very interested in speaking to Geoffrey Jackson as they understood that his position as a Governing Body Member would help their inquiry. They also expressed their view that it would not necessarily have to be him but any Governing Body member. They were told that Geoffrey Jackson would not be of assistance as his position was in translation. They chose to ignore the Commission's request for assistance on a voluntary basis and even misled them.
The next day the Commission did not repeat their invitation and instead made the point that they had been misled in understanding just how much assistance Geoffrey Jackson could provide and advised they would be making a formal application that he appear.
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There is likely to be two parts to Geoffrey Jackson's Subpeona
by Listener inwe've been focusing on the fact that geoffrey jackson will be subpoenaed to be a witness at the australian royal commission but he will also be required to present a witness statement before his appearance.
even if he continues to wiggle out of the appearance he has no excuse for not presenting his witness statement.. this statement will have to address questions set out by the commission and will need to be answered.
without doubt the answers he is able to be aided by his lawyers and more 'experienced' jws but as he is signing the document they will be his answers and he will be responsible for their truthfulness.. had he shown more willingness to appear prior to yesterday the questions asked by the commission in that statement would not have been written with the same amount of insight that they now have.
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Listener
We've been focusing on the fact that Geoffrey Jackson will be subpoenaed to be a Witness at the Australian Royal Commission but he will also be required to present a Witness Statement before his appearance. Even if he continues to wiggle out of the appearance he has no excuse for not presenting his Witness Statement.
This Statement will have to address questions set out by the Commission and will need to be answered. Without doubt the answers he is able to be aided by his lawyers and more 'experienced' JWs but as he is signing the Document they will be his answers and he will be responsible for their truthfulness.
Had he shown more willingness to appear prior to yesterday the questions asked by the Commission in that Statement would not have been written with the same amount of insight that they now have. Their knowledge of procedures and policy has increased tenfold and their questioning is likely to reflect that.
I hope the Commission goes in to as much detail with those questions as possible. They now know where the organization fails in best practice. It would be great if they could question him on every one of the flaws and have a two part question on each issue. The first asking him whether he agrees it is a flaw or not or if he recognizes the harm that their policy could have on the victim and the second part asking what changes he would consider in addressing these issues.
This is one time where their delaying tactics will prove to be detrimental for them. They've proven to be neither wise nor discreet.
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Australian branch co-ordinator Terrence O'Brien gets called out for lying to the Royal Commission
by Mickey mouse inwatch from 1:47:00 as angus stewart of the royal commission investigation into child abuse calls out the australian branch co-ordinator for lying about geoffrey jackson's role on the governing body.
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Listener
The Commission told the lawyers yesterday that they would be happy to hear from Jackson or any of the other GB members. They abused the invitation and previous contacts regarding the matter and once the Commission realized they had been hoodwinked decided to take firm action.
Jackson, with the help of the JW lawyers and Branch Office Committee put himself in this predicament.
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Australian branch co-ordinator Terrence O'Brien gets called out for lying to the Royal Commission
by Mickey mouse inwatch from 1:47:00 as angus stewart of the royal commission investigation into child abuse calls out the australian branch co-ordinator for lying about geoffrey jackson's role on the governing body.
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Listener
Here's part of the transcript from yesterday when Stewart spoke to the JW Lawyer about Geoff Jackson. Mr O'Brien today admitted that he had coached the lawyer as to what to say.
MR STEWART: Your Honour, just prior to resuming the
8 examination of Mr Spinks, I might take the opportunity to
9 say something about Mr Geoffrey Jackson. He is a member of
10 the Governing Body and he is currently in Australia --
11
12 THE CHAIR: That is the Governing Body in New York?
13
14 MR STEWART: That's right. Some weeks ago it came to the
15 attention of the Royal Commission that Mr Jackson, a member
16 of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses in New York,
17 was in Australia. We wrote to the lawyers acting for
18 Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia and asked if their client
19 would procure a statement from Mr Jackson and make him
20 available as a witness. The reply that was received was
21 that Mr Jackson was in Australia for private, compassionate
22 reasons and, also, that since the Governing Body was not
23 involved in the implementation and administration of
24 policies and procedures in relation to child sexual abuse,
25 he would not be able to give relevant evidence.
26
27 The Royal Commission then left the matter at that
28 point, but subsequently came to the view that Mr Jackson's
29 evidence would likely be useful for this hearing,
30 particularly in relation to the formulation of policies and
31 procedures by the Governing Body and the possibility for
32 change of policies and procedures in the future. We
33 therefore wrote last week asking whether the lawyers for
34 the Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia would accept service
35 of a summons on Mr Jackson. The reply that was received
36 reiterated that for reasons of compassion related to why
37 Mr Jackson was in the country, it would, as it was put, be
38 unconscionable for him to be required to prepare to give
39 evidence and to give evidence.
40
41 Taking that into account, Mr Jackson has not been
42 summonsed to give evidence. We would, however, welcome
43 evidence from him, or another member of the Governing Body,
44 particularly with regard to the setting of policies and
45 procedures and the possibilities for change of those
46 policies and procedures, and the door is open for the
47 Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia or the Watchtower Bible &
.04/08/2015 (152) 15676 R P SPINKS (Mr Stewart)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 Tract Society of Australia to present such evidence for
2 this hearing, including by video conference.
3
4 THE CHAIR: Gentlemen, I don't know which of you two
5 should respond to that. Could I make it plain, if it is
6 not plain already, that the Commissioner and I have concern
7 about the process of investigation and determination of
8 allegations within the Jehovah's Witnesses and whether it
9 is a safe and effective process for the determination of an
10 allegation by a person that they have been sexually abused
11 by someone within the church.
12
13 Now, I understand the theocratic foundation for the
14 present position - at least, I think I do. But at the
15 moment, we do not have a witness, as I understand it, who
16 can tell us what the way forward might be to enable the
17 church to bring its processes to the point where, rather
18 than run the risk of increasing the trauma on those who
19 have been abused, the processes can assist in alleviating
20 the trauma. It is of fundamental importance to people who
21 have been abused that when they go to the relevant
22 authorities - and in this case, it is the church, because
23 the church demands a complaint be brought to the church -
24 their story is accepted and they have the opportunity to
25 tell the whole of their story to a forum which they can
26 have trust in, and which will enable them, then, to pass,
27 as it were, some of the burden to that institution, which
28 requires, in this case, that it report, or that person
29 report.
30
31 Now, these are very significant issues. They are not
32 small issues, they are significant issues. At the moment,
33 we are, as I say, facing the situation where we can see
34 a problem, but we do need assistance from the church in
35 what is the solution. We rather thought that Mr Jackson
36 might be able to assist us in that respect.
37
38 I understand the reason for compassion being extended
39 to him. I have no difficulty with that. And for that
40 reason, I have not issued a summons requiring him to
41 attend. But at the moment we face a serious issue with
42 which only the church can help us.
43
44 Whether that needs a response now, I don't know, but
45 we would like you to reflect upon that situation.
46
47 MR TOKLEY: Your Honour, may I respond on behalf of the
.04/08/2015 (152) 15677 R P SPINKS (Mr Stewart)
Transcript produced by DTI
1 persons I represent. Your Honour's points are being taken
2 on board, are being addressed, and are being given the most
3 earnest consideration by the authorities. Mr Jackson would
4 probably not have been of any assistance in any event,
5 because his role and his responsibility is in relation to
6 the translation of matters; it's not in relation to these
7 sorts of matters.
8
9 However, Mr O'Brien, who will give evidence before
10 your Honour, is able to assist your Honour in regard to
11 some of the matters your Honour has raised. I can assure
12 your Honour that to the extent to which Mr O'Brien is
13 unable to assist your Honour, we will do everything that we
14 can to ensure that the Commission is given the assistance
15 that is required from us and to help the Commission.
16
17 THE CHAIR: The assumption I make at the moment is that if
18 there is to be change, it's change that has to be
19 ultimately sanctioned, if not directed, by New York. Am
20 I right?
21
22 MR TOKLEY: Your Honour, ultimately it is a matter for
23 submission. We understand your Honour's point and we
24 understand your Honour's particular concern about the
25 environment in which these matters are reported. So that
26 has not been lost upon us at all. The question, I think,
27 at the end of the day, is the adaptability of the present
28 structure to the individual circumstances of any particular
29 person and whether that present structure is inappropriate,
30 so it must be done away with, or whether the appropriate
31 structure can be modelled for the purposes of an individual
32 person's case. I think that's probably one of the more
33 difficult questions that the Commission will have to deal
34 with at the end of the day.
35
36 THE CHAIR: It is. But if there is to be change, again,
37 I had assumed that change has to be either directed or
38 sanctioned in New York.
39
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Royal Commission Live Hearing Now
by LostinJapan inwednesday 5 , day 7 live hearing.
case study 29, july 2015, sydney.
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Listener
Stewart's discussion about shunning was very good, talking about morality again.
O'Brien was actually recommending a person fade instead of disassociating, that was pretty sick specially since he is encouraging dishonesty.
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Royal Commission Live Hearing Now
by LostinJapan inwednesday 5 , day 7 live hearing.
case study 29, july 2015, sydney.
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Listener
I'm sure Jackson can find someone's basement to hide in.