i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
Still thinking and I are on the same page, I think - or at least sharing entire paragraphs in common. And I thrilled over flipper's post about the conversation he had with the elder. That is precisely what I seek to accomplish. Planting a seed that might somehow sprout.
Off to the cellar to find a nice red to share with my lady and her mom.
Later.
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
Hey there, sab, seems you and I were composing at the same time.
You are wearing rose colored glasses, I hate to say.
Perhaps I am. But perhaps the glasses you're wearing are distorting things a bit for you.
You also speak about the intellectually stimulating conversations you have had with Witnesses. You say they respect you, but you are mistaken. They pity you, as a hopeless and bigoted atheist. They verbalize this prejudice as "differing views." They maybe even like you as a person, but they don't respect you as a person of free will and it's foolish to think otherwise, imo.
How, I wonder, is that different from my perspectives of them? I see them as hopeless and bigoted, too, and I am not so diplomatic as to say their views are just different. I have used the word "delusional", actually, but only in the kindest tones. As to respect, it is either there or it isn't. And when it isn't, it is manifest because respect goes hand in hand with sincerity, and it is incredibly difficult to fake sincerity.
I liked your post, though.
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
So many fine comments generously and sincerely given.
I recognise, Shelby, that my atheism puts me at a disadvantage because it is something that my wife will never embrace. And I have already taken ownership at least in part for her maintaining her association with the WTBTS. I believe I used Aesop's fable about the wind and the sun, likening myself to having adopted the wind's strategy over the years and achieving similar results. It is true. I can't offer her anything in exchange for her leaving the Watchtower including, as ST has pointed out, looking into other religious organisations - (I tried that, in fact ST, and it had exactly the reaction you indicated in your wonderful post above. It took me years and years to finally understand that women don't want their problems "fixed" so much as understood, just understood. Sometimes we men can be as dense as bricks.) I also recognise and accept my penchant for coming to wrong conclusions, although I hope I am mature enough to admit it when I do.
My perspective on relationships with religious people (or people of faith, if you prefer) is that I am completely cool with them. I can admire their mosques and cathedrals and even be an inactive participant in their ceremonies, asking only that they can accept the polite reciprocity of leaving me alone with that cherished organ I keep between my ears. That's all I ask, really. A problem arises only when they can't help themselves but to attempt to meddle with my life or my mental furniture. I like my mental furniture just fine the way they are, thank you. And it all works because the Watchtower has no power over me, and that is because I have given it none. The hypothetical offered I think twice in this thread that if I was to become baptised then decide to leave, well then, then I would understand what people are talking about. But that hasn't happened and it's not going to happen. Ever. So it is irrelevant. If the Jehovah's Witnesses in my circle of concern treat me with kindness and respect principally because they want to make a good impression on me in hopes that I might soften to their perspectives on the world, then so what? I'm doing the same to them, after all, and in the process we sail through life getting along. That does not mean that I respect what they do and represent, and vice versa, but it does mean I return considerations given. If they were to treat me as some of those on this board have been treated, they would no longer be part of my life. But that has not been the case.
I agree wholeheartedly with still thinking when she identifies the most effective weapon against the Watchtower, if only because I know that confrontation doesn't work at all. I understand that that weapon is not at the disposal of someone shunned. That is perhaps why the Watchtower is so quick to turn its back on those who have perceived the truth about The Truth, to deny them the weapon of love.
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
I'm heading off with my lady to the Lake. I caught all the fish the last two outings and that has made her a little cranky, so I've got to work at rectifying that. I'll check in to this and other threads later on towards evening.
Thanks for all the feedback.
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
My choice of terminology was muddled, Shelby. By "end it all" I was referring to our marriage. The "all" was superfluous. It was, regardless, a rhetorical question. Alcoholism is a disease and if you are married to an alcoholic you have three choices. You can try to help him stop drinking, you can put up with his drinking, or you can end it and move on. Delusion of the nature we are discussing is also a disease of sorts, but the parallel isn't a perfect one. I have never stopped trying to disabuse my wife of her delusions about the Watchtower, only my approach has changed. Nor do I accept putting up with it but rather limiting the affect it has on my life. Ending it and moving on, not in the picture.
But I get where you're coming from (and you too, OUTLAW and Oz). I think I did luck out in many respects and, as Donny said first in this thread underlined by others, I also realise my unbaptised status puts me into a different category from most of you and therefore warrant different treatment - ie. I am not a despised apostate, just another blind atheist. Your interactions with the rank and file will be far less benign as will be your response to them. But in my case to suppose they're trying to win me over, no, that's not happening, at least on the part of those who actually know me and who have already engaged in conversation with me about the Watchtower. They will go out of their way to avoid conversation, which is kind of unfortunate, because my assertions and questions have invariably left them speechless - thanks in great measure to what I have learned from people like you. There are others with whom I do not have a relationship (and don't want one) who periodically try to schmooze me - invitations to social evenings, for example. I have accepted them in the past but no longer as I end up being a minority of one and the artificial nature of the conversations of the evenings have left much to be desired.
And this is a special place, indeed. I have used it myself to rant and vent and rage and there has been no other place in which I felt free to do so. But it is also a place visited tentatively by active Jehovah's Witnesses who are taking their very first baby steps into emancipation from the Watchtower. There are many others in here who are still in but whose minds are no longer enslaved but who for one reason or another are not free to make a break. It would be a shame if hostility felt toward them should cause them to retreat into an environment in which they felt more accepted and comfortable, albeit very heavily qualified. Then there are people like me who are extensions of their active Jehovah's Witness spouses. Some of us, as I myself have done, vent frustration felt toward their spouses or report on conflicts between them. Still others have made it clear to their spouses that they see the Watchtower for the fraud it is but actually enable their spouses' Watchtower activities. That, I cannot do.
Final point, of this post at least, is a broadly supported perspective that Jehovah's Witnesses have two personalities, one of which is associated with the Watchtower and one that is not. The Watchtower personality is not usually manifest when my wife and I are doing things together. Advice has been given by many to me personally to maximise those times in order to help the non-JW personna achieve a decisive dominance.
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
I always value and appreciate the posts you direct to me, Shelby. Allow me to read this particular one once or twice again in the morning before I comment on it further. At least beyond a question to clarify things. If I can't trust my Jehovah's Witness wife of 38 years to have my best interests at heart, as I do hers, then why shouldn't I just end it all here? I have to be convinced that the person I am living with is genuine, and vice versa. If not, everything changes, for both of us.
Back atcha tomorrow.
there was an error on the latest awake!
cover.
here is the correct version.. .
I've got a few of Dawkins' books in their audiobook format, including The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion and The Greatest Show on Earth. I find them even better that way, with Dawkins' himself narrating, along with his wife, Lalla Ward, rounding it out for many quotations.
I have the audiobooks, too. I've been experimenting with them, Scully. At first I read "The God Delusion" and then as a refresher I listened to it. I recently read "The Selfish Gene" while simultaneously listening to the audiobook on my iPod. My thinking is that retention of what the author wishes to convey would be improved if one was reading the text while listening to it narrated. First thing one realises is it takes much longer to listen to a book being narrated than it does to read it, but it does seem to improve comprehension a little bit. There are also some remarkable differences between the audio and text books. For one thing, when Lalla Ward is narrating she switches from the personal pronoun to the impersonal, which changes the nuance somewhat. I'm now into the process of reading The Greatest Show on Earth* without benefit of having the audiobook and I am so far enjoying it.
*bioflex, read this book, and then come back on to comment.
it is pretty obvious when some posters get most....animated?
it is always later in the day, cocktail hour, especially weekends.
but my question is this:.
So, we're all still friends?
i have been wondering of late about the extent to which jwn's minions (one of whom i am beginning to see myself to some extent) differentiate the machine from its parts.
what i mean is, what degree of separation is discerned between the watchtower bible and tract society and its individual members?.
henry milner, who is a polical scientist at the university of montreal, posits that those who rely heavily on the internet for their information ultimately become dogmatic.
Perhaps, Violia, it comes down to understanding why otherwise good people get sucked into the Watchtower and then working that understanding to preventing or even reversing it.
it is pretty obvious when some posters get most....animated?
it is always later in the day, cocktail hour, especially weekends.
but my question is this:.
I'll endeavor to use MORE capitals, draw weighted emotional conclusions, and stop making so much GODDAM SENSE in future.
Shit, but that made me chuckle. I love and savour every word of your posts, sizemik. Get your head out of your ass.
Edit: Is there a correlation between the above comment and the fact that I have consumed the better half of a lovely bordeaux with dinner? Perhaps. Now onto a smokey single malt to finish off the evening. I do not qualify the content or mood of posts to follow.
