I guess I shouldn't leave such a curt reply. You are farther ahead in understanding why it is inevitable because you have been able to wrap your head around a four billion year dynamic - or at least I think you accept evolutionary theory but I wonder if you haven't really tried to conceive how big that number is. Yes, you know it is a really big number but have you internalised how big it really is? Maybe you have. Regardless, you believe that God provided the spark of life that set evolution in motion and everything that was done over the past four billion years was done so that Christ could come to Earth to save us. That is your explanation for life occuring on earth, the meaning of life on earth. My explanation is that life did indeed evolve, because the evidence for it is so overwhelmingly convincing. It's convinced you, after all. But my take is God didn't do it because as much as the evidence is mounting to support evolution there is no evidence that I can perceive that God exists, none. So for me something else had to have happened. And, in support of the anthropic principle, if it happened here, it will have happened and will continue to happen elsewhere simply because the popluation of probabilities is so very large. The number is far, far more incomprehensible than even 4 billion years.
Nickolas
JoinedPosts by Nickolas
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
That's what you don't see, Paul.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
I'm beginning to feel like a cog in the wheel of this thread, mostly because I'm revelling in the conversation without adding too much to it. Really first class dialogue coming from, well, pretty good brains. I am struck by this statement from sizemik:
I feel I have divested all my preconceptions of God . . . I am a blank page . . . point me to the freely available evidence and I'll examine it. That's what I'm looking for.
That's exactly it. If you roll your eyes when you hear that word repeated over and over again then it could be that you don't get how important it is to me and likeminded folk. If you are going to convince me that God created everything rather than me accepting what on the face of evidence is a much better explanation for the beginning and existence of life on Earth then you will need more than an ancient book and cherished beliefs. It's not defiance. It's a gently offered fact about me. I perceive that the Christians who have contributed to this thread get great joy out of what they believe and they generously want us to feel the same joy they do. The same hope and love they do. I appreciate that. But the happiest mindset I've ever had in my longish life is the one I have now because I feel closer to understanding reality than I have ever been. I'd like everyone to have this kind of peace of mind, but that doesn't mean I'd like everyone to think the same way I do. How dull would that be? Shelby taught me a lesson a number of months back about the dangers of bursting somebody's bubble. If someone truly loves being a Christian (or some flavour of Christian as much as each claims to be the one true flavour, like a Jehovah's Witness) it might be ill-advised to convince them of an alternative reality. And, what right is it of mine to destroy someone's happiness? Surely, none whatsoever. You, as an individual, were born, grew up into adulthood and now you are living out the rest of your life. You may still be in your 20's and have a whole lot ahead of you to learn, but you still might be young enough to resent being reminded of that. You may be in your 30's or 40's and are cognisant of the large volume of what you have learned but you still may not have an understanding of your mortality. I'm in my 60th year. I'm smarter today than I was yesterday, but not as smart as I will be tomorrow.
I watched jgnat's video and it's actually pretty good and certainly germaine to the OP. It stretches the imagination enough so that one can just barely almost perceive of life happening spontaneously and how it is inevitable given the trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of environments that exist in the universe. Complexity from simplicity. If the big bang happened roughly 13.7 billion years ago (for the sake of argument, whether or not an intelligent being set it off and ignoring that it begs a different layer of the question) and the Earth formed and cooled sufficiently about 10 billion years later, how many similar environments formed and cooled a billion years earlier? How many others formed and cooled in between and how many others are forming and cooling still? The statistical answer is unknown because the base case has not yet been defined, and that is where we find ourselves in this thread. Some say God did it and the earth is a very special place. From a statistical standpoint when I consider the vastness of the universe I begin to perceive that it happened because it was inevitable.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
Oh, and goodnight.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
Rough translation, we are speaking different languages to one another and there is no way we are capable of understanding what each other is trying to say. To each and all, I respect that you have chosen the path on which you find yourselves. All I ask in return is that you respect mine.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
That problem and it's resultant irritation is directly proportional to the length of post..:)
Yes, and this one was no doubt my longest to date as I flipped from page to page while composing fragmented responses to the excellent points made by all. Lost to posterity now, but that's how it goes. Perhaps I overloaded the buffer. In the end I can offer a simple distillation:
loquimur inter se et aliis linguis, non est qua nos invicem intelligere possit quid sit amet est. Ut omnia et singula, secundum quod ego elegi vos reperio semita quo vos. Omnia inquam in reditur ad te mei.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
I've been bitten once again by the JWN editor. After composing a lengthy response to the past 24 hours of commentary, a task to which I devoted the better part of an hour, it was entirely obliterated when I hit the Submit button. I am beginning to realise why many people compose in some other medium and cut and paste into here, but that doesn't always work well either. I was under the impression that someone was working to debug this board. Anyway, I have work to do today so must be off, back this evening. Carry on.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
(This JWN editor drives me nuts. I went back to add a quote to the above and everything went flakey)
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
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Nickolas
Faith, dear one. - Shelby, p. 1
together with faith... - Tammy, p. 1
believe in him by Faith. ... it is a matter of FAITH ... “without faith .. “Nowfaith is ... In order to have faith ...faith, ... Real faith ... I have FAITH. - Bella 15, p. 1
we can have faith and be rational. In fact, faith is essential in order to have rationality ... Faith and reason are not contrary. They go well together (since all reasoning presupposes a type of faith) Awen, p.1
As to why thsi faith over another faith? ... never has been and never will be, based on "blind faith". - Paul, p. 1
Faith can't be defended by evidence . . . otherwise it wouldn't be faith would it? Unfortunately, defending belief based on faith, is by far the more difficult task . . . that's just the way it is. - sizemik, p. 2
Yes, but it wasn't a believer, dear Size (again, peace to you!). For someone who truly is of faith... which faith is not dependent upon some writings, etc., nothing poses a thread ("If God IS for you, who can be against you?"). Nothing to fear. On the other hand, there appears to be those who've moved on from faith who associate ANYTHING even remotely related to the WORD "faith" as something to be feared. Literally threatened, if their responses are any indication.- Shelby, p. 4
I guessfaith can hold different meanings depending on the context. - sizemik, p. 4
Again, what is so special about Faith? Is the exceptional faith of, say, the men who immolate themselves in crowded bazaars admirable? Certainly to many it is, but to many more it is not... Faith prevents one from seeking alternative conclusions, and that is why the faithfulcannot see what I see... I, for one, do not know He exists, therefore the rest - faith in His promise - has no prerequisite foundation. I circle back to the need for faith in Him and, finding none, faith in His promise falls away.- Nickolas, p. 4
Could a believer not say the same of an unbeliever... that faith ALLOWS us to see... and LACK of faith is "why the UNfaithful cannot see what [we] see?" - Shelby, p. 4
through their lack of faith ... so long as they put faith in HIM AND HIS BLOOD ... Shelby, p. 5
Also includes "Yahweh, the bible, and faith," though, right? With a specific query to those OF faith? - Tammy, p. 6
The limitation you speak of is absolute unquestioning Faith. Faith handed down from generation to generation in the form of the Holy Bible.- Nickolas, p. 6
If you are referring to blind, unquestioning faith in what some other person tells you your faith is supposed to BE, then I can agree. That is very limiting. But you are mistaken, imo, if you think people do not eXamine their faith, and why they have it, and still come out at the end WITH faith intact and even stronger than before ... Perhaps you might tell me how or where I am limited in my faith- Tammy, p. 6
I am unable to act on faith. Call it a personal failing but I've been fooled once before by faith.- Nickolas, p. 7
The idea that my ego is large enough to allow me to think that such a being owes me something is preposterous beyond words. The idea that such a being would owe me something if I walked by faith is even more alarming. If we have enough faith or belief in anything, the mind is capable of making our hope an internal, subjective, reality. ... Whether a king, queen, pauper or gladiator all humans are little people. Unable to accept this, some entertain the idea of a personal god that will talk to them if they have enough faith and that faith leads to everlasting life. It’s a big and ambitious plan for people who cannot accept the insignificance of their existence. I envy you your illusion. You should treasure it for reality is not so gentle or rewarding. - Gladiator, p. 8
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Faith is not evidence. It is an unshakable, cherished belief in something that cannot be proven but is nevertheless taken to be absolutely true and beyond questioning. That different faiths contradict one another belies their legitimacy. All that remains is evidence.
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269
The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.
by Nickolas inthere have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.
i guess this will be another one.
there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.
-
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Nickolas
BTW - what's "knackered"?
It means tired, as in ready to go to bed. Like I am now. Just speed-read the posts that followed my penultimate one so they didn't sink in much deeper than my scalp. I'll give them a little more attention in the morning. G'night.