Posts by Nickolas

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Shelby, why don't you just go away? Thanks.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

What a love fest. Tec, myelaine and Shelby, I find it kind of hard to follow you guys sometimes.(or would you rather I referred to you as girls or ladies? It's just that most women I know don't like to be called ladies and saying you women might be perceived as prejudicial).

When I can't follow what you're saying I tune out. I'm no bible scholar but I studied hard with the Witnesses for two years and then studied the bible for a year on my own when I took my first job as a logger. That was 35 years ago, just after I graduated university. I've been living with a Jehovah's Witness for more than 32 years of our 37 year marriage. You can do the math. I've been where scriptural vernacular is being used freely, as if there's nobody else in the room. It's kind of rude. If you want to quote scripture, fine. It's the nature of the board. But when you guys get preachy like you're prosthelytizing to an audience I think it is about as appropriate as me using language from the bush camps that might cause you to be a bit uncomfortable. I think you guys are out of bounds, but I'm open to arguments to the contrary. Just please don't preach to me.

Just so we're clear, my interest in being a member of this board is developing the knowledge and skill required to help people see the need for themselves to leave the Watchtower. That's my interest. I'm never going to believe what you believe, as much as I appreciate, honour and encourage your right to believe it. That doesn't mean I don't like you. I think we are all not friends of the Watchtower, and that makes us friends. I'm talking like a man to you and sometimes men speak a different language from women, and I know atheists speak a different language from believers. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. Imagine a calm, rational tone of voice, please.

You guys are believers.

I'm a non-believer and I fully recognise that fact written above but my head still can't get into your headspace, no matter how hard you or I try. I don't think I'm going out too far on a limb to speak for atheists as a whole. Our heads are into logic, reason and evidence and right or wrong we regard Faith as accepting things on their face value, and we are just not capable of doing that. You can't get into our headspace because you can't fathom life without Jesus. It does not compute. Even if you allowed your mind to go there it would be like imagining your child being run over by a train. It would scare hell out of you just thinking about it. Jesus is a loving, living being to you. You love Him with all your heart and you can't imagine life without Him. What you need to realise, really realise, is we don't believe He exists. Trying to have a rational conversation on subjects like these in a forum where there are both hard-core Christians and hard-core atheists is like a group of Chinese trying to have a rational conversation with a group of Greeks. Not gonna happen. It doesn't mean we can't talk a common language and still be friends. However, if the thought of being my friend bothers you, then I won't be offended if you refrain from communicating with me. Live and let live.

It bothers me that AGuest said: I don't fear YOUR message... which has without a doubt led some to their literal death: many, who cannot bear to think that there is no God, let alone live without one, have taken their own lives. Notice the caps? I found that pretty heavy. Maybe even crossed a line. You just don't know who you're talking to, so sometimes its best to be a little more circumspect. I wonder if Shelby's ever watched people she loved die, if she's ever had someone die in her hands while she's sucking the blood out of his lungs, spitting it out the smashed windshield while trying to keep him alive with CPR. I wonder if she's ever carried a dead man on a stretcher through the bush. She is saying MY message causes people to kill themselves because when the light goes on it scares them so badly they can't handle it. Ergo my question at the end of the starting post: can you handle the truth? I take death of others seriously. My own I'm not so worried about. I don't want you to have an epiphany if you can't handle it. For me, having my mind free of a god and the supernatural was a tremendous emancipation. And it doesn't make me want to end my life, it makes me want to enjoy it more. It's just too precious. Time is short, and being happy living it is all that matters. If you don't get it, or just don't want to get it, I'm more than ok with that.

I am open to hearing rational, logical, scientific, mathematical, physical and, yes, scriptural arguments that debunk Watchtower interpretation and doctrine but I'm not much interested in being preached to. I know you are trying to save people and all that but no thanks. If I start another thread, I'd welcome you to come on in and comment if you want to add to the conversation and everyone's enjoyment of it. If you want to hijack it, well I'd really appreciate it if you didn't.

Thanks.

Nick

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Those who are in the truth exibit moral integrity

I don't mean to pick on you, Vander, and as much as I really need to get some workd done, I can't leave this one alone. I had to come back and answer you. There are plenty of morality lessons in the Bible provided by God - assuming here that you equate the word of God to truth. The book of Numbers tells how God incited Moses to attack and destroy the cities of the Midianites. His army had no trouble slaying all the men, and they burned all the Midianite cities to the ground, killing also all the Midianites' domestic animals, but they didn't kill the women and children. This merciful restraint by his soldiers infuriated Moses, and he gave orders that all the boy children should be killed along with all the women who were not virgins. It was Moses' concluding sop to his slaughtering army that I remember best: 'But all the girl children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves' (Numbers 31:18). Yup, that's moral integrity alright. What about the story of Lot? He's being visited by a couple of angels and a crowd of men gather outside his door demanding that he put them outside so they can take turns buggering them. Lot says no, but take my daughters to gang rape, instead. Turns out he doesn't have to follow through because the angels strike the partygoers blind or something (can't remember) but it gets better. Lot and his two daughters, the ones he offered up to be raped, camp out together after the fire and brimstone stuff and Lot gets drunk, not once, but twice. And when he's into his cups he bangs each of his daughters and gets them pregnant. Lovely morality lesson, that. And then there's the story in Judges about some Levite priest staying with an man in Gibeah. Same shtick as Lot. Bunch of guys come to the door and they want to bugger the priest. The host says, please don't do that. Take my virgin daughter instead, and the priest's concubine. No angels to intervene this time. The two women are gang raped all night and left for dead on the doorstep in the morning. The priest is impatient with his concubine and orders her to her feet. She can't do it, because she's dead, so he takes his knife, cuts her into twelve pieces and carries them to all the coasts of Israel. (Judges 19:29).

Your bible and your God have no morality lessons to teach to me. I am a good and moral man without either.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Shelby, there is so much in your posts that cry out for debunking that I am overwhelmed. Where to start? Maybe the better question is Why bother? If you are convinced that the sky is orange, then I will not be able to convince you that it is blue. It could very well be that the rods in your eyes are configured such that your visual cortex interprets the wavelength of light that I (and most of the rest of the world) see as blue in a different way. No matter how much I tell you it is blue, it will always be orange to you. Same goes for your cerebral processes and mine. You and I don't think the same way, we can certainly agree on that, so maybe we shouldn't bother trying to get one another to see the same things.

That said, the lease on your soapbox has not yet expired, although you should not be offended if I just skim over your contributions looking for variations in the theme.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Much in history cannot be substantiated beyond the realm of faith....but not necessarily beyond reason.

Well, Vander, I cannot agree with you, once again, at least generally. The largest, and by far most important difference between scripture and history is the degrees to which each are credible, observable and repeatable.

If the historical account says that Hannibal took a bunch of war elephants over the Alps to invade Rome during the second Punic war, I might be impressed, I might be doubtful, I might even think that the account was fabricated (which, as we know, happens with historical accounts - ever hear the expression "history is written by the victors"?). But I cannot say it is impossible because it is repeatable. As heroic and arduous a task it is to drive an elephant over a mountain range, it is still within the realm of the possible. It can be repeated, it can be observed, therefore it is credible. It still might be bullshit, but that's the beauty of history. You are free to interpret it and accept or reject it for yourself.

On the other hand, if the scriptures tell me that Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, that he walked on water, that he exorcised demons, cured the blind, turned water into wine, did all those supernatural things, why should I believe it to be true any more than I should believe that Mohammed and the Archangel Gabriel flew to Jerusalem one night on a winged horse? Christians believe the Jesus stuff, Muslims believe the Mohammed stuff, I believe neither because they are not within the realm of the possible. They cannot be repeated, they cannot be observed, therefore they are not credible. However, and here's the key difference between history and holy writings, because the Qu'ran and Bible each says it is true you must as a believer actually believe it is true.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Hey there, Shelby. I have just poured myself a nice, large single malt Islay and will retire in front of the big screen for an hour or so before dousing the lights. I'll read your contributions in the morning and get back. Probably late.

Good night, dear lady.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Yet it seems that many find that story and His words quite offensive.

Those who find the reported words and story of Jesus of Nazareth offensive have some other agenda from mine. The world would be a far better place if we all lived according to the example of Jesus as reported in the New Testament. Who could read it with an open heart and mind and not be inspired by it? Who could argue the wisdom of the Golden Rule, regardless of who originated it? I know I was and I still am. The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one of the most beautiful ever told and that is why it has endured two millenia, but it is still a story that cannot be substantiated beyond the realm of faith. I can prosit without rancor that because so many thousands and millions of good, caring and self sacrificing men and women have bought into it lends no credibility to its veracity, it proves only that they believed and continue to believe it to be true to the extent they were and are willing to lay down their lives to defend it. The same may be said and more for the words and story of the Prophet Mohammed. No, one doesn't see too many Christians strapping bombs to themselves and detonating them in crowds of innocents (with the exception of the Tamil Tigers, most of whom also represent themselves as Christian) but that means only that their complete and utter conviction to their version of the truth is not quite so radical. They are at least just as convinced they subscribe to the genuine Truth as you are. At worst they are a great deal more determined that people pay attention to what they have to say.

When one lives his life according to the words of others and speaks them with rote accuracy, even when they are spoken with sincerity, confidence and eloquence, they are still the words of someone else and do not necessarily reflect the mind or intelligence of the one speaking them. They have in many cases left the thinking part to those others whose words they quote or, worse, to the people who spin the original thoughts into something else entirely. It is better to challenge what others tell you is true until you are utterly defeated and are no longer able to argue the contrarian perspective. Then you will be convinced of the truth to the extent you are capable. I have a ways to go, and so do you.

Your mind, OTWO, is logical.

4

For all newbies

by mouthy in

jw
friends

why not call marilyn at 1-800-why -1914. if you want any info on the wt,,,she has been out for awhile now.

is a counsellor .

mouthy.

Nickolas

What constitutes a "newbie"?

Compared to ancient ones (um, like you, old gal, but please don't take offense) people like me are sopping wet behind the ears.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Truth bears repeating my friend.

This is not intended to incite or offend, but the lesson learned from tired, old men in neighborhood pubs who tell the same yarn over and over again to those who are patient enough to listen to him is that the more often he repeats something with conviction, even if it was a tall tale to begin with, the more he himself will come to believe it to be true.

An old fable concerns the comeuppance of a braggart who was forever retelling the story of a truly stupendous leap that he had once made on the island of Rhodes. Never, it seemed, had there ever been witnessed such a heroic long-jump. Though the teller never grew tired of the tale, the same could not be said of his audience. Finally, as he again drew breath to relate the story of the great feat, one of those present silenced him by saying gruffly, "Hie Rhodus, hie salta!" (Here is Rhodes, jump here!)

Christopher Hitchens.

202

"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas in

i can't remember the last time i was asked that question because it has been many years.

nor do i remember my response to the questioner but it no doubt contributed to not being asked the question since.

are you in the truth?

Nickolas

Gladiator gets my vote for most rational, eloquent, and diplomatic reply of the day.

Mine too. Even after two more pages.