The skull sequence presents a certain clarity to the dynamic that some will be unable to see because it challenges what they otherwise believe. It's just the way it is. The evidence for our evolution is plentiful and virtually conclusive (adjective chosen deliberately) and is more logical than the alternative proposition. Good thread.
Nickolas
JoinedPosts by Nickolas
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77
On Human Evolution
by TD init's a subject that comes up fairly often here (understandably) and very strong opinions are expressed.
much of the discussion seems to be counterproductive.. i'd like to propose a different approach.
we all know what each other's conclusions are (or at least we should by now).
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Why we grow old and die
by ballistic in"why we grow old and die"... i remember seeing this article quite a lot, but maybe you could tell me if it still comes around?.
anyhow, i was watching a tv programme the other day about nature following the second law of thermodynamics and i realised that everything around us breaks down, everything wears, things that move generate friction, the tendancy for particles is to fall apart and "entropy" to increase, just as the universe itself will one day have no structure left as such, just randomness of elementary particles floating about and darkness.. .
really, the question implies a bogus argument.
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Nickolas
Quite right, but it is a message a lot of people in here don't want to hear.
Cheers,
Nick
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Reality exists in your brain
by Nickolas ini've just posted the following in another thread whose subject is supernatural experience, but it may deserve its own thread so i'll repost it here.
i don't believe in the supernatural but i do believe that people experience unexplained things.
where i differ from some people is that i perceive the unexplained things exist only in their brains and not in the physical world around them.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Nickolas
Psilocybin and LSD are chemical agents that induce a state of altered awareness but not a "reality" per se. One comes back to reality after a trip, to the "normal" state of being and one's usual and natural perception of the world and oneself. There is reality and one's interpretation of it and often the two are not necessarily the same, especially where intangibles are concerned, which is Nick's point. A moot point I might add, considering the title and course of the thread. Though I enjoyed experimentation with altered states and perceptions, I choose to live in the natural state of my mind and body, such as it is.
When one can attribute a cause to an altered state of consciousness, whether it may be drug induced or in a dream, that altered state of consciousness does not persist. It goes away when the drug is oxidized by the liver or when the individual either recognises he is dreaming or wakes up. It does not form part of the person's reality but for the brief time he is experiencing the altered state. However, when a person fails to recognise that an altered state of consciousness is not real (schizophrenia has been mentioned as an extraordinarily stark example but it certainly does not apply to people generally) then it will become part of the person's reality. Like my b-i-l and his friend, who continue to believe to this day that their out-of-body experience was real.
I propose that the realities that all of us hold onto are at least to some small measure affected by perceptions that may not be entirely rational. Maybe it is only a fraction of a percent of what we hold to be real, but it is still part of it.
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Reality exists in your brain
by Nickolas ini've just posted the following in another thread whose subject is supernatural experience, but it may deserve its own thread so i'll repost it here.
i don't believe in the supernatural but i do believe that people experience unexplained things.
where i differ from some people is that i perceive the unexplained things exist only in their brains and not in the physical world around them.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Nickolas
Welcome to MY "world", dear Nick - LOLOLOLOLOL! Peace to you!
Thank you, Shelby. I am, at least, in good company.
Seems we're essentially on the same page, Terry (but in the interests of full disclosure, in a recent thread your name and mine were mentioned in the same sentence with the word "kooky".)
Crux, the shared, drug-induced experience I referred to on the previous page that caused two individuals I know to become Jehovah's Witnesses was something like what you describe that might cause you to change your rationale. These two men, one of whom is my b-i-l, were passengers in a van along with a few others all doing hallucinagenic drugs. The driver of the van lost control, causing it to leave the road and roll several times before coming to rest on its roof in the ditch. Both my b-i-l and his friend report having been standing on the shoulder of the road watching the accident happen in slowmo and then looking at one another in wonder when in a flash they found themselves strapped in their seats in the wreck, unhurt. They were convinced that this was a message from God so changed their lives from hopeless reperbates to dedicated family men and, not incidentally, Jehovah's Witnesses. My take is they were both high on drugs and coincidentally experienced the same halucination because they were both studying TM and astro-travel at the time and their minds were disposed to the out of body incident.
lucid dreaming while awake and during the day is akin to day dreaming?
Not quite, curtains. Lucid dreaming happens only when you are asleep. The thing that differentiates it from "normal" dreaming is lucidity - recognising that you are asleep and dreaming while the dream is happening. It feels as if you are awake and physically experiencing the dream, but it isn't real and you know that it isn't real. Sort of like the holodeck on Star Trek or maybe more like the situations depicted in the movie Inception, but not quite. Day dreaming is perhaps similar but happens not nearly as deeply in the mind. And, yes, as Crux says, you can use lucid dreaming techniques to control nightmares,(and as Mad Sweeney discusses on page 1 of this thread.)
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Reality exists in your brain
by Nickolas ini've just posted the following in another thread whose subject is supernatural experience, but it may deserve its own thread so i'll repost it here.
i don't believe in the supernatural but i do believe that people experience unexplained things.
where i differ from some people is that i perceive the unexplained things exist only in their brains and not in the physical world around them.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Nickolas
I like your analogy, TJI. Music can't be seen but it still has a physical presence. It causes shock waves in the air which cause physical movements in your ears that are interpreted by your brain. Once you have performed the beautiful piece it exists only in the memories of those who have heard it. It has become part of their reality with no physical proof that it ever happened. A parallel can be drawn with a supernatural experience that has a physical presence but is not recorded anywhere except for the memories of those who experienced it. The only significant difference I can think of at the moment is that music can be captured and simulated using technology while supernatural experiences have not been.
I'm disappointed that I come across to you as arrogant, TJU. It is not my intention and I suspect it is either an example of the limitations of text communication (no facial expressions, body language or intonation of voice to complete the message) or because you don't like what I have to say so you attack my character. But just to be clear, I mentioned halucinagenic drugs in support of the post by Twitch as a trigger for spontaneous illusions that the brain interprets as real. While I do not do nor ever have done halucinagens I do know two people who interpreted their identical drug-induced experience as a message from god and who became Jehovah's Witnesses as a consequence. That's two people out of thousands, so quite rare. I didn't mention schizophrenia but it is also a trigger for people seeing things that aren't really there - if you haven't seen A Beautiful Mind yet, it's probably one of the best representations of the disorder. I have never had occasion to actually meet anyone with schizophrenia so, again, quite rare. I don't consider myself to be crazy but I shared my own personal experience of lucid dreaming, which I at the time interpreted to be real when it clearly was not. What happened to you, I don't know because I was not there, but because I do not believe in the paranormal I believe there is a rational explanation. It may not have been in your head, but it will still have had a physical cause.
OTWO, this thread might have been better titled "Your reality exists in your brain". The physical world around you is real and your brain interprets the signals from your sensory organs to create a representation of the physical world. Your brain puts all the pieces together along with all the intangibles like thoughts and emotions and the result is your perception of what is real. The person sitting next to you on the bus will not have the same perception of reality that you do, even though you share the same space in time. It is just the way it is. He believes things that you do not believe. His reality is unique from yours so where, then, do your different realities exist if not in your individual brains?
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Does God speak to you? HOW?
by Quentin inan answer to this question is subjective to the individual an a posteriori experiene.
however, can there be an a priori experence, one that is objective, outside the bounds of personel experiene, or does it remain subjective?
god speaks to me, through many venus, except audible.
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Nickolas
Oh, come now: they don't limit themselves to atheists - LOLOLOLOL! Most "theists" (as that word negatively connotates) dislike and are suspicious of anyone who doesn't believe as they do. Even other theists... and certainly spiritual non-theists (like myself). You're not alone in that, dear one, so take it in stride. Under these circumstances, you're probably in better company than you think, actually.
Yes, how true. I am often amazed by the extent to which you and I are in agreement on some things yet be in such fundamental disagreement on another.
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Reality exists in your brain
by Nickolas ini've just posted the following in another thread whose subject is supernatural experience, but it may deserve its own thread so i'll repost it here.
i don't believe in the supernatural but i do believe that people experience unexplained things.
where i differ from some people is that i perceive the unexplained things exist only in their brains and not in the physical world around them.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Nickolas
That is a wonderful post. Thank you, Shelby. Yes, it is clear that there is another aspect to ourselves that is not physical. My sense of the dynamic is that the non-physical aspect is psychological rather than spiritual in nature. For many years I interpreted such things as manifestations of spirituality but after so many failed tests for credibility I came to interpret them as something far more ordinary.
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189
Does God speak to you? HOW?
by Quentin inan answer to this question is subjective to the individual an a posteriori experiene.
however, can there be an a priori experence, one that is objective, outside the bounds of personel experiene, or does it remain subjective?
god speaks to me, through many venus, except audible.
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Nickolas
I have to ask, dear Nick (peace to you!)... excluding those who use their beliefs to oppress and/or try to control others, what harm is there in one excepting one's own beliefs? If such beliefs causes one to be a better person, treat others better, do good in the world
Absolutely nothing at all, Shelby, although I do have an opinion about people being good because of their religious beliefs rather than because they are just good people. As to the different poles, is there a middle ground? Either God exists or he does not. But by no means do I feel that someone of faith is in any way inferior to me, although I have felt prejudice from theists who dislike and are suspicious of atheists (not you, my dear). My wife is devoutly faithful to God and I have always held her extraordinary intelligence in high esteem. (I also, btw, started a thread a couple of days ago saying that one should not judge another on the basis of his/her faith or lack thereof - so I think we're on the same page on that score.) And by no means am I questioning sanity - although I am not entirely convinced any of us is completely sane. I am questioning human psychology recognising that people, including myself, have had unique and strange experiences. In my case, I recognised the experience as a manifestation of my brain. (See http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/208611/1/Reality-exists-in-your-brain )
Thank you sincerely for your post. You're another one who's mind I respect a great deal.
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Does God speak to you? HOW?
by Quentin inan answer to this question is subjective to the individual an a posteriori experiene.
however, can there be an a priori experence, one that is objective, outside the bounds of personel experiene, or does it remain subjective?
god speaks to me, through many venus, except audible.
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Nickolas
The human brain is a wonderful thing. It is adept not only at analysing and interpreting the tangible world around us it also analyses and interprets those things which are not tangible, like the thoughts and emotions of others and notions about the supernatural. However, the brain doesn't always get it right, and sometimes, even frequently, it makes stuff up - the most common example being dreaming. Who amongst us has never experienced a dream that he/she thought was real even in the first few fleeting moments of waking? The brain is also adept at drawing conclusions - another intangible that it doesn't always get right.
If Jesus and Yahweh talk to some Christians does Brahman and Vishnu talk to some Hindus? If so, do Brahman and Vishnu exist, or are they just figments of the listener's mind? Or are they demons masquerading as gods? And if they are demons how do you know that the God that is speaking to you is not a masquerading demon, too?
Since there's never any physical evidence of God speaking to you, how do you know that it isn't your brain just making stuff up? I think it can be difficult to determine what is real and what is not real, especially if one already has an absolute belief in God and love for him. Presented by your brain's most wonderful fabrication you might be reluctant to consider that it isn't real and you may actually convince yourself beyond any doubt that it is real.
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Reality exists in your brain
by Nickolas ini've just posted the following in another thread whose subject is supernatural experience, but it may deserve its own thread so i'll repost it here.
i don't believe in the supernatural but i do believe that people experience unexplained things.
where i differ from some people is that i perceive the unexplained things exist only in their brains and not in the physical world around them.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Nickolas
One of the great imponderables of the universe, V.
I comprehend what you are saying, TJU, and it is all valid. The line to which you refer isn't fixed. Each of us has a different line and it is constantly shifting. Most of what we perceive as reality is a substantially accurate representation of the physical world around us. Where our brains depart from reality is when nothing physical is being represented, when we interpret intangible things like another person's emotions or thoughts, for example, or when our brains go on spontaneous journeys as in lucid dreaming or in magic mushroom or LSD illusions. (I've never done psilocybin, Twitch. I'm reminded of an episode in The Sopranos in which the main character does shrooms for the first time and yells out to the world "I get it!"). Reports of paranormal experiences (and UFO sightings) are legion, yet none has been substantiated. Again citing Fatima, there were thousands of people who reported witnessing the same supernatural phenomenon yet no proof exists that it actually happened - indeed, there is only proof that it didn't happen. Proof of existence of the paranormal is more than elusive, it doesn't seem to exist. Someone who has experienced something unexplained and for which they have physical evidence is a candidate to claim the $1 million Randi prize, yet that prize has stood untouched for several years.