Posts by fulltimestudent

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

In 2012 Boyarin published a book entitled, The Jewish Gospels: The story of the Jewish Christ. (New York, The New Press).

Last year (as I recall it) Doug Mason drew this book to our attention, and I'm grateful that he did so.

If readers here have not yet heard of Boyarin's book, may i quote the Amazon overview:

"In this powerful, groundbreaking work, Boyarin guides us through a rich tapestry of new discoveries and ancient scriptures to make the powerful case that our conventional understandings of Jesus and of the origins of Christianity are wrong. Boyarin’s scrupulously illustrated account argues that the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts. Jesus, moreover, was embraced by many Jews as this person, and his core teachings were not at all a break from Jewish beliefs and teachings. Jesus and his followers, Boyarin shows, were simply Jewish. What came to be known as Christianity came much later, as religious and political leaders sought to impose a new religious orthodoxy that was not present at the time of Jesus’s life."

What I want to focus on in this thread however is the first chapter, which Boyarin named, "From Son of God to Son of Man, " and in particular his analysis of Daniel 7:9,10, 13, 14.

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[b] was seated,
And the books were opened.

......

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

I'm sure that nearly everyone here (as I did) read that an uncountable number of times in the field work. But did we read it with open eyes and minds. We shall see.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

The theology of the witnesses was defined initially by the beliefs taught by Charles Russell. After his death, Joseph Rutherford obtained control of the legal organs used by Russell to disseminate his theology and later to organise his followers. Rutherford's name was attached as author to many publications disseminated during his presidency, but it is thought, by some at least, that they were ghost-written by Fred Franz. True or not true, it seems clear that by 1940, Franz was installed as the chief theologian of the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's witnesses, and that major beliefs of the witnesses were established during this period.

To what extent Franz followed scholastic discussion in the academic world is not clear, but it can be suggested that the theological concepts taught by the witnesses are now at variance with the views of most scholars with an interest in both second temple and post second-temple Judaism and early Christianity.

To be up-front, in the first part of this discussion, the views of Professor Daniel Boyarin (of the University of California at Berkeley will be used. His home page is at: http://nes.berkeley.edu/Web_Boyarin/BoyarinHomePage.html

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

As Jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic Judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by Jesus.

That's the premise which this thread will discuss. I suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs. So this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:

1. There was evidence of a belief in polytheism in the Judaism of the late second temple period.

2. That Christianity remained a branch of Judaism for a long period.

9

Red Moon Over China

by fulltimestudent in

perhaps the recent lunar eclipse was heaven's way of demonstrating approval of the tremendous changes in china.. here's some images from the china daily:.

the total lunar eclipse as observed in shenzhen, south china's guangdong province, april 4, 2015. the moon slipped fully into earths shadow saturday, starting a total lunar eclipse for nearly 12 minutes what guangdong astronomical science association says it was the shortest such eclipse of the century.

.

fulltimestudent

As seen against a Guangzhou skyline:

Lunar eclipse turns the moon 'blood red'

9

Red Moon Over China

by fulltimestudent in

perhaps the recent lunar eclipse was heaven's way of demonstrating approval of the tremendous changes in china.. here's some images from the china daily:.

the total lunar eclipse as observed in shenzhen, south china's guangdong province, april 4, 2015. the moon slipped fully into earths shadow saturday, starting a total lunar eclipse for nearly 12 minutes what guangdong astronomical science association says it was the shortest such eclipse of the century.

.

fulltimestudent

Perhaps the recent lunar eclipse was heaven's way of demonstrating approval of the tremendous changes in China.

Here's some images from the China Daily:

The total lunar eclipse as observed in Shenzhen, South China's Guangdong province, April 4, 2015. The moon slipped fully into Earth’s shadow Saturday, starting a total lunar eclipse for nearly 12 minutes — what Guangdong Astronomical Science Association says it was the shortest such eclipse of the century.

Lunar eclipse turns the moon 'blood red'

8

Christian self-righteousness

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

doesn't matter what brand of christianity - this cartoon says it all:.

.

fulltimestudent

Doesn't matter what brand of Christianity - this cartoon says it all:

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

The BIG mistake that bible believers make is to think that the bible is the only record of ancient philosphical discussion on the universe.

May I recommend an ancient, long (verse) discussion called, "On the Nature of the Universe," by a first century BCE. writer known as Lucretius. You can download one translation at: http://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.html

Some parts of that discourse, are of course, "way out there," but think of this statement in his Book One, around verses 480.

"Material objects are of two kinds, partly atoms
And partly also compounds formed from atoms."

Lucretius, was of course, influenced by the concept of atomism, developed by early Greek thinkers known as the first philosophers (or, the Pre-socratics)

(See also the Oxford World Classic publication, The First Philosopher-The Presocratics and the Sophists - Robin Wakefield)

Atoms of course, cannot be seen, but these thinkers were able to conceptualise their existence,

For convenience I let the Wikipedia entry expand that thought:

Atomism (from Greek ἄτομον, atomon, i.e. "uncuttable", "indivisible"[1][2][3]) is a natural philosophy that developed in several ancient traditions. The atomists theorized that nature consists of two fundamental principles: atom and void. Unlike their modern scientific namesake in atomic theory, philosophical atoms come in an infinite variety of shapes and sizes, each indestructible, immutable and surrounded by a void where they collide with the others or hook together forming a cluster. Clusters of different shapes, arrangements, and positions give rise to the various macroscopic substances in the world.[4][5]
References to the concept of atomism and its atoms are found in ancient India and ancient Greece. In India the Jain,[6][7] Ajivika and Carvakaschools of atomism may date back to the 4th century BCE.[8] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools later developed theories on how atoms combined into more complex objects.[9] In the West, atomism emerged in the 5th century BCE with Leucippus and Democritus.[10] Whether Indian culture influenced Greek or vice versa or whether both evolved independently is a matter of dispute.[11]
The particles of chemical matter for which chemists and other natural philosophers of the early 19th century found experimental evidence were thought to be indivisible, and therefore were given the name "atom", long used by the atomist philosophy

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism

So right up to our time, that thought was held to be true.

Only now, some 2500 years after the presocraticthinkers, were humans able to examine the basic building blocks of matter and find that atoms were in fact, divisible.

Continuing the Wikipedia entry:

However, in the 20th century, the "atoms" of the chemists were found to be composed of even smaller entities: electrons, neutrons, and protons, and further experiments showed that protons and neutrons are made of quarks. Although the connection to historical atomism is at best tenuous,elementary particles have thus become a modern analog of philosophical atoms, despite the misnomer in chemistry.

The bible is left for dead by those thinkers.

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

This is a response to the part of azor's request for thoughts on the statement that:

"The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god."

I think it is more honest to say that, the proto-jews, believed in one god (yahweh) who was their god, and who they considered to the "true god," that is, a 'real' god as opposed to 'unreal,' or 'false' gods who did not really exist. A re-reading of first Kings ch.18 regarding the contest between Elijah and the priests of Baal surely demonstrates that.

The texts claim that this 'real' god revealed himself to Israel's forbears, and continually demonstrated his 'realness' through his dealings with the one family who worshipped him as their own god.

However, that idea is not supported by facts. Professor Mark Damen (Utah State University) calls attention to a wider possibility.

The concept of monotheism has deep roots in Western Civilization, reaching as far back in time as the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt, well before the formation of the ancient state of Israel or the advent of Christianity. - Reference: http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320hist&civ/chapters/10AKHEN.htm

He is (as that page makes clear) talking about the "new" religious teachings of Akhenaten, an Egyptian Pharaoh of the fourteenth century BCE, likely before the formation of any Israelite nation.

To what extent there was a prior discussion is unknown, as is the spread of the idea after the reinstatement of orthodoxy in Egypt.

We also know the concept of a supreme god was spreading among Greek thinkers at the time of Plato, that quite possibly primed the way for the success of early Christianity.

57

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

by azor in

i remember studying this book years ago and how it impacted my belief system.

i no longer believe the bible is god's word.

however i do have a couple of lingering questions on this subject.

fulltimestudent

azor: The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god that exists outside of time and space.

May I take the second point first, i.e. that god exists outside of time and space.

What does it mean when someone claims, that there is a being that lives outside of time or space?

The concept is dependent first on being able to demonstrate the existence of such a being, because the problems associated with that being existing in a empty universe, in which measurable time does not exist have only become apparent with our contemporary expansion of knowledge about the universe.

But isn't the concept, that god lives outside of time and space, predicated on a belief (faith) that this god actually exists, but we now start to move in circles as the existence of a creative god is very difficult to demonstrate.

This question was discussed on TED (though I've lost the link) and I really liked the way that the question was asked:

How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....

Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.

Does God pop in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?

Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.

Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc

The above questions were asked by someone who doubted

Another aspect of this discussion involves the way the ancients thought of time. Is it identical to our view.

A useful discussion by a believer is at this link:

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2001_52_2_02_Blocher_TimeEternity.pdf

And finally, I ask anyone considering the question to ask how the people of that time (of scripture writing) understood time and eternity?

23

"Moses, by far the meekest and most humble person" ??

by stuckinarut2 in

seriously, how can it be ok for someone to say of themselves that they are "by far the meekest and most humble person" on the earth?.

numbers 12:3 'now the man moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth'.

yes, moses was so humble that he told everyone about it!!?!.

fulltimestudent

freemindfade
fulltimestudent, excellent work and excellent example of eisegesis. thank you.

Thank you fmf, for attempting to praise my amateurish attempts at scholarship. Unfortunately, I must refuse the praise, implicit in your attribution of eisegesis to me.

Why? Because, aside from your precise intention, the fact is that I am only repeating prior scholarship.

For example, in this book, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford,

(Princeton University Press 1992)

Or, this one: Out of the Desert: Archeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives, William H. Steibing Jr., Prometheus Books, 1989

there are objective assessments that throw doubt on the tradition of the Exodus.

There remains however, one key question. What were the political/cultural/religious implications of the political occupation of the area by the Egyptians?

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

Thank you fmf, for attempting to praise my amateurish attempts at scholarship. Unfortunately, I must refuse the praise, implicit in your attribution of eisegesis to me.

Why? Because, aside from your precise intention, the fact is that I am only repeating prior scholarship.

For example, in this book, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford,

Or, this one: Out of the Desert: Archeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives, William H. Steibing Jr., Prometheus Books, 1989

there are objective assessments that throw doubt on the tradition of the Exodus.

There remains however, one key question. What were the political/cultural/religious implications of the political occupation of the area by the Egyptians?

The Bible offers no comments on the possibilities implicit in a political occupation. Again, we should be asking why not?