Posts by fulltimestudent

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

Response to TTTE.

1. Origin of the word divine:
Late Middle English: via Old French from Latin divinus, from divus 'godlike' (related to deus 'god').MORE Divine ‘godlike’ came via Old French from Latindivinus, from divus ‘godlike’ (related to deus ‘god’, source of Middle English deify).

Reference: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/divine

Used as an adjective, the Oxford defines the word this way:

adjective (diviner, divinest)1Of or like God or a god:

--------------------

And as a noun: (the Divine)Providence or God.

In the descriptive verses in Daniel 7, the terms used are descriptive.

In the case of the first figure, he is called, " The Ancient of Days"

And the second, "one like the son of man."

Are this figures supposed to represent humans or Divinities. (Gods)?

You are (of course) entitled to give whatever meaning you wish to a word, but the plain English meaning is as a reference to "the/a God"

So some translations render the controversial text in John 1:1 by using the word divine in lieu of "God", or, "a god."

Here's a quotation from Wikipedia:

Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render part of the verse as "...and the Word was divine."

An Orthodox Bible Commentary notes: "This second theos could also be translated ‘divine’ as the construction indicates "a qualitative sense for theos".

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

I cite that verse, not to sidetrack into that controversy, but simply to give an example of the use of the Englsih word, Divine, by some translators.

Therefore when you argue:

"Now Boyarin makes a fundamental mistake as almost all of us do when he said...
"What this text projects is a second divine figure, to whom will be given eternal dominion of the entire world. .
There is no second “divine figure” in view here as there is no first “divine figure” in view. He has wrongly used the word divine from our language to try to describe something from ancient Hebrew."

I ask simply, according to English usage, is the word 'divine,' out of place? I don't think that can be argued. All the English words that can be used, are English and not original.

What word do you think Boyarin should have used?

16

When did Christianity Separate from Judaism?

by fulltimestudent in

this is a subject of some importance, the view of the witnesses, likely inherited from franz's influence, seems to be that early christianity developed as a separate religion to the jews.. the view of most contemporary scholars is that the separation occurred slowly, and that influential early christians (e.g.

such as paul, peter, john and james) still saw themselves as jews.. to those of us that are no longer christians (and, most ex-witnesses here, seem to gradually move to that position) this is not an important issue.. but to an organisation that claims it has "the truth," surely it should know the truth about its origins.

yet the evidence is that the modern day religion of jehovah's witnesses, does not know the "truth" concerning the origins of early christianity.

fulltimestudent

Great story, CalebinFloroda. Thnx, for telling it here.

The biggest mistake (IMHO), is that standard (for lack of a better word) Christians including the standard JWs, is to assume that both first century CE Judaism and Christianity was homogenous and united in their belief systems. Of course, there were some common beliefs, but there were also some really wild beliefs also.

3

Translating Animal 'Talk.'

by fulltimestudent in

listen first:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=30&v=wozgcyoi9l8.

this is an area of particular interest to me.

fulltimestudent

Listen first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=30&v=wOzgCyoi9l8

This is an area of particular interest to me. One of the first realisations in my 'awakening,' was eth realisation that the Bible was plain wrong in the statement made at 2 Peter 2:12:

The KJV translates it as:

But these, as natural brute* beasts, ...

In the NWT (large study version), Freddy decided to say:

But these, like unreasoning animals ...

The NIV is similar:

They are like unreasoning animals

The RSV decided on:

these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,

Even 30 years ago, it was becoming evident, that the idea that animals could not reason (think) was wrong. And, if that idea, as expressed in the above verse, is wrong, then clearly the Bible is not inspired and the whole christian thingie is bullsh*t.

Since then, science has collected more and more evidence that the idea of 'unreasoning' animals is based on superstition, not evidence. I've posted on this from time to time.

Now, none of us will understand the gibbon 'talk' in the above video, but by a process of recording sounds, and watching reactions it became clear that different sounds meant different things, and the article in this link discusses the research that went into decoding gibbon-speak.

link: http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-language-lar-gibbons-02683.html

--------------------

*The word that the KJV translates as 'brute,' is alogos with the essential English meaning of:

destitute of reason
See, https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G249&t=KJV
hence 'unreasoning'

16

When did Christianity Separate from Judaism?

by fulltimestudent in

this is a subject of some importance, the view of the witnesses, likely inherited from franz's influence, seems to be that early christianity developed as a separate religion to the jews.. the view of most contemporary scholars is that the separation occurred slowly, and that influential early christians (e.g.

such as paul, peter, john and james) still saw themselves as jews.. to those of us that are no longer christians (and, most ex-witnesses here, seem to gradually move to that position) this is not an important issue.. but to an organisation that claims it has "the truth," surely it should know the truth about its origins.

yet the evidence is that the modern day religion of jehovah's witnesses, does not know the "truth" concerning the origins of early christianity.

fulltimestudent

Vidiot- I agree, and I noted last semester that it was likely a gradual process and that some scholars were talking about 200 years, and not the JW idea of an immediate split

Anyway, someone has gone to a lot of trouble with this "Evolutionery Tree of Myth and Religion:"

reference: http://rahoorkhuit93.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/timeline-myth-religion.jpg

2

Sex and the Church - BBC2

by cofty in

if you are in the uk check out an interesting new documentary series that starts on bbc2 at 9pm, this evening or catch up on iplayer.. from pleasure to sindiarmaid macculloch explores how christianity has shaped western attitudes to sex, gender and sexuality throughout history, beginning by examining how the early christians transformed intercourse from a biological necessity into a vice and from a pleasure into a sin.

the historian explains how greek ideas of sexual abstinence were adopted by the early christians, looks at how st paul, st jerome and st augustine developed increasingly negative ideas about sex, and tells the story of the rise of monasticism across the west.

fulltimestudent

Thnx Cofty, I need to include a section in my research essay (this semester) on the difference between western attitudes to sex and Asian attitudes to sex. This may be useful, at least for ideas to chase down.

8

Christian self-righteousness

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

doesn't matter what brand of christianity - this cartoon says it all:.

.

fulltimestudent

You liked that one-here's another. A bit more savage, I think, but pertinent.

15

Japanese torture of American prisoners in WW2 revealed

by fulltimestudent in

this is not a new story.

the japanese military in ww2 were barbaric in the way they treated captured servicemen.

i was about ten when my father's best friend came home from a japanese prison camp.

fulltimestudent

Looking for something else just now, I came across this drawing:

Its from an American Journal and portrays the British Army in India executing captured Indian soldiers (after the Indian mutiny) by strapping them to the muzzle of a cannon and blasting them to bits. It was intended to scare the sh*t out of Indians.

Can't really be compared to what the Japanese military did, but the image demonstrates that unreasonable cruelty is not confined to one particular race or military.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

True to the End18 hours agoI researched original Hebrew and Greek meanings of the various words used for God.

Thank you for going to so much trouble. TTTE.

Could I just change the perspective on that first line (just a little bit).

Can it be stated this way, that you researched the words, that the authors of the ancient document used, and which are often translated by the English word, 'god.'

I suggest that perspective, because our language is secondary to the original language.

I was planning next to post on the expressions, 'son of god' and 'son of man', which are sort of critical to the discussion, but I'll hold that for a few days, while we clear this bit. (Anyway, I must also produce an outline for a 5000 word essay, right now).

Do you think you could give an opinion on the word 'pelach' often translated 'serve,' but also holding the potential meaning of 'worship?'

30

Symptoms of Spiritual Weakness - Elder's Manual

by cappytan in

lack of self-control in eating, drinking, and pursuit of pleasure;.

so, let me get this straight.

enjoying a fancy meal, appreciating the finer qualities of libations and deciding to enjoy life by pursuing pleasures (bike riding, hiking, camping, fishing, reading, movies, golfing, etc.

fulltimestudent

Stuckinarut2an hour agoMore info re the Australia bethel fulltimestudent :
There was another drunk in charge during the 50s / 60s? named Bro Reece...
Then there was another rebel / drunk named John Wilson...
Now there is another indulger of the liquid named Viv Mouritz...

Reece? I think I should know the name, but can't bring something definite to mind.

The tender-hearted Ted Jarasc was BO when I first came in the 'truth', and my constantly fading memory places John Wilson next on the throne. Perhaps Reece was late 1940's

Another story. Bro Mac (Macgillivray), was in charge of the branch in the 1940's when the witnesses were banned and the army took control of bethel. The bethel family were allowed to keep living there. So Bro. Mac goes out one night and imbibes too much spirit, and when he came back to the bethel home (in Strathfield in those days), he was, of course, challenged by the duty sentry. Mac, made the wrong reply - so the sentry shot him. Didn't kill him, though.

I never ever thought of John Wilson as hitting the bottle hard. Rather liked john, also. I could talk to him.

Viv Mourtiz. His return to Aust. was after my time.

----------------------------------

DATA-DOGan hour ago
Madzay?!? Is he the owner, or related to the owner of MADZAY?!?!

Yup, same family, DD. The story is that this print shop was set up by the WTS/Knorr during WW2, they printed the WT in that print shop, located on one of the border lakes between the USA and Canada, and transported them to the USA (?) by speed boat.

After WW2 Dave's father bought the print shop from the WTS, and all these little bitsy things have supported them since. I think, if I recall clearly, that most of the family have pioneered on the proceeds.

Dave's end was sad.

16

Pastor Inciting Murder And Genocide Of Gays

by Village Idiot in

i'm not so much into gay issues as i am into right wing fundamentalist issues but what they say about gays is irksome and at times dangerous.

when trawling the internet for their statements i find that 80% of what they have to say is about gays, more so than abortion or even obama.

i could shrug it off as pathetic ignorance unworthy of a rebuttal if it weren't for the occasional psychos like the one below.. rarely do they explicitly state these opinions but in this video they show their true colors.. this harlem pastor is calling on 'christians' to die and kill for the sake of their beliefs.

fulltimestudent

The whole attitude tells us, that while some Christians focus on the love bit, the overall theme of the Bible is hate (of the perceived enemies of god).

On the whole, the pastor' statements tell us a lot about the religion.

But I wanted to comment on the pastor himself. There's a lot research work that indicates that homophobic hate is first of all directed internally, and is an attempt to deal with the homophobe's own attraction to the same sex.

Havn't got time to go searching for it today, but I'll try and get to it in the next few days.