Posts by fulltimestudent

15

Any William Miller Scholars out there?

by neverendingjourney in

for those who may not be aware, the 1914 date was arrived at by russell by using the same framework of the failed prophetic interpretations of the adventist preacher william miller.

see this chart:.

if you look at the top right of the chart, he uses the same 7-times reasoning to arrive at the 2,520 years (7 times=7 multiplied by 360-day years=2,520 years).

fulltimestudent

Millerism informed generations of American Christians. The line of thought definitely influenced Charlie R.

74

Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

by TMS in

jw
friends

with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

fulltimestudent

Another story - not everyone liked that sudden and exhilarating 'spring.' A sister (we were quite close at one time) finding all those changes a little difficult to deal with said to me one day. I liked it when everything was black and white, now everything is some shade of grey and you've got to work out how grey is too grey.

OK. Brooklyn soon fixed that up.

---------------------------

On another topic - I noted somewhere that Vaughn Guy is now on the Aussie Branch Committee. I always found him an easy guy to deal with. I wonder what he's like now?

74

Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

by TMS in

jw
friends

with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

fulltimestudent

Ultimate Axiom : I remember a great deal of intellectual freedom ...

Yeah! I recall that too.

And then the 'shutdown.' haha!!!!

It really pissed one of my friends off. He had a young family after pioneering and continually struggled to make ends meet for his family. ( YHWH will provide - bullshit!)

His father-in-law had come off the circuit work and was being 'developed' as a writer (including, it seems, articles with a spiritual content). As, I remember it, Dave Madzay had something to do with that 'writing' team, and Dave always seemed to me to be on the 'left' rather than the 'right (grin) but then he had be a bit liberal because of his drinking problem (another grin).

Anyway, with this new liberal intellectual attitude, they were apparently allowed to use some previously forbidden, publications used in academic research and churches. I forget what the name of this 'Bible aid' was but it was a set of volumes and cost in those days, some 500 dollars (a few weeks wages as I recall it).

Father-in-law tells son-in-law how helpful it would be to his writing research to have this $500 dollar research help. Son-in-law ever-conscious of serving YHWH, decides to buy this $500 set that has suddenly become a spiritual treasure for his father-in-law and his family goes without whatever.

A few years later, the heavenly weather changes, and consulting anything from non-JW sources is suddenly forbidden (again) and the $500 volumes go into the garbage bin.

My friend took it on the chin like the faithful Christian that he was (then), but I think it was the beginning of his awareness that led to his freedom ( he is now a sceptic).

Maybe $500 was cheap to be free from bloody old YHWH and his Jesus side-kick.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

fulltimestudent

Mephis :And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Again, that is the future tense. Even according to Matthew, written half a century later, the 'church' (ekklesia) doesn't exist when he says that to Peter. It is not "and on this rock I am building my church" or "on this rock I have built my church".
And that's assuming Matthew has it right.

Haha! But the Matthew document (written by whom?) isn't the only document that mentions succession. The Gospel of Thomas, has another perspective:

"The disciples said to Jesus: We know that thou wilt go from us. Who is he who shall be great over us? Jesus said to them: In the place to which you come, you shall go to James the Just for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." (Gos.Thom. 12)

Ben Witherington III, another contemporary student of early Christianity, in his "New Testament History: A Narrative Account,' and is a believer* discusses the key role played by the family of Jesus, and quotes the above passage, acknowledging that "James played and important and central role in the earliest days of Christianity ..."
He then quotes the early church historians, Eusebius and Epiphanius, that the first two bishops ot the church in Jerusalem were relative of Jesus - James and Simeon, and refers to evidence** that the grandsons of Jesus' other brother Jude (likely author of the NT letter of that name).
Interestingly, he continues that:

"What little evidence we have does not encourage us to think that Galilean Christianity under the family of Jesus, and perhaps some of the Twelve, was any less Jewish than the Jerusalem-centred community."

In other words, Christianity (at first) was a Jewish sect, in the same way that the Essenes were a Jewish sect, which is also the point that Vermes was making, as I noted in my previous post.
We can only guess how James got involved in the early church, and how James and Peter sorted out their respective roles.

-----------------------------
* In the dedication of the above-mentioned book he acknowledges a R.D.H., who has been the hands of Jesus in my life.

** R.Bauckham, Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church, (Edinburgh: Clark,1990)

11

Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

by Crazyguy in

first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

in the book a few things i noticed.

fulltimestudent

Lieu : These missing or omitted texts make me wonder.
1. At the writing of revelation, Christians are on the run AWAY from Roman territories. The 7 congregations mentioned are all in what's now Turkey.

This map may help you to picture the Roman empire about the end of the 3rd Century CE.

After Constantine became Emperor, he built a new capital for the Empire and named it Constantinople. It was renamed by the Ottomans when they captured the city as Istanbul.

As can be seen on this next map. Nicaea is not so far from Constantinople.

The Orthodox (eastern) churches make more fuss over the first council of Nicea that Protestant churches. This Othodox religious icon glorifies the council

And also in that part of the empire (and also part of modern Turkey) are the seven churches of Revelation.

Its good you're wondering about it all!

11

Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

by Crazyguy in

first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

in the book a few things i noticed.

fulltimestudent

There is also a claim that Jesus quoted from the Book of Enoch. That is I think, a bit of a stretch, the use of similar wording does not necessarily mean a direct quote, and then again, if Jesus is quoted accuratedly it may just means that both Jesus and the author of the Enoch document had read (or, heard of) some other document that is now lost. For what its worth here's a list of claimed usage.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})

"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).

Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})

Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})

In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})

that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})

the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})

11

Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

by Crazyguy in

first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

in the book a few things i noticed.

fulltimestudent

Crazyguy : First off the book of Enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

I agree its an important reference for us today. But its mere presence among the DDS found at Qumran need not prove that it was considered important. We need to understand why they may have considered it important.

freemindfade : I've always found this text interesting as well. This plus the book of Enoch is quoted in the bible book of James.

I went looking for the James reference, and couldn't find one. Would you mind posting it?

It also occurred to me that perhaps you may have meant Jesus' other brother Jude?

Its accepted by some that Jude was quoting the Enoch document,

Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1]
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

1

Not Everything in Russia is serious -What do people think of a naked woman climbing down a ladder

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

this is from a russian tv show called 'naked and funny,' reminiscent of american tv shows in the 50s/60s.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkrse4gvvue.

fulltimestudent

This is from a Russian TV show called 'Naked and Funny,' reminiscent of American TV shows in the 50s/60s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkRsE4gvvuE

6

Curiousity interest - Russian President Putin Attends Orthodox Christmas Mass last week in Turginovo Church

by fulltimestudent in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvfi14wdugo

fulltimestudent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfI14WDuGo

8

Obeying YHWH can make you sick

by fulltimestudent in

we were once told and re-told that obedience to yhwh and his side-kick would save our lives..

so how about this bit of real-life research that's currently emerging in academic circles?.

there were strict rules in the law code about how and where you could sh*t..

fulltimestudent

Oh! dear... scatology (the study of excrement) always attracts attention.

But back to the point of the thread.

Can it be demonstrated that obedience to a law made the believers sick?

Yes it can!

The first post defined the rule that Jews were expected to obey, that is to excrete waste material from their bodies 'outside the camp.' I could not resist repeating, Dr Robert Cargill's point in his blog, that the reason the Israelites had to do that, was to avoid offending YHWH in case he saw their sh*t. But that was not the point I wanted to make.

As witnesses, it was drummed into us that, the hygiene sections of the law were there to protect the health of YHWH's worshippers. But, as you will see, his laws as demonstrated at Qumran actually made them sick.

Because of the importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls in understanding both early Judaism and early Christianity, all kinds of academic disciplines have taken an interest in the site. This report from the academic journal Nature, covers the research into the sects toilet habits.

Toilet excavation could link site to Dead Sea Scrolls.
Katharine Sanderson

The ancient site was riddled with roundworm eggs - a sign that it was used as a toilet.J. Zias
An ancient Jewish sect showed such devotion to their definition of purity that they pursued bizarre toilet habits that left them riddled with parasites, say researchers who have discovered and dug up their toilet.
The discovery, made at Qumran, near Jerusalem, could provide more proof linking the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Essene people who lived in the area, the researchers claim.
The scrolls — the oldest biblical documents ever found — were thought to have been made by the Essenes around 100 years BC. Joe Zias, a palaeopathologist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem dug around Qumran where he thought their toilet should be, and took soil samples to try and prove the connection once and for all.
The scrolls describe strict rules for where the Essenes were allowed to defecate: far enough away from the camp not to be visible, sometimes as much as 3,000 cubits (1.4 kilometres) away in a northwesterly direction. They had to bury their faeces and perform a ritual all-over wash in the local waters afterwards.
At Qumran, following such instructions would take the Essene men to a nicely secluded spot behind a mound. And as Zias and his colleagues report in the current edition of Revue de Qumran1, the soil there bears the hallmarks of a latrine — and one not used by the healthiest of people.
Dirty bath water
Dead eggs from intestinal parasites, including roundworm (Ascaris), whipworm (Trichuris), tapeworm (Taenia) and pinworm (Enterobius vermicularis), were preserved in the soil. "If you look at a latrine from the past you will always find these parasites," comments Piers Mitchell, a medical practitioner and archaeologist at Imperial College London, UK.
It seems a pretty ordinary picture of ancient ill health, says Mike Turner, a parasitologist at the University of Glasgow, UK. He describes the pinworm rather aptly as "common as muck", adding that to use its presence to argue that the Essenes wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls is "an interesting bit of lateral thinking", he says.
The Qumran site was home to the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, claim researchers.J. Zias
But Zias is certain that the toilet was used by the scrolls' authors. He was already convinced that the Essenes lived at Qumran from previous studies of the local graveyard, which contains remains of almost exclusively men, which fits with the fact that the Essenes were a monastic sect.
What's more, the men buried there had an average age at death of 34, making them a sickly bunch. But it wasn't the toilet parasites that finished them off, Zias suggests, but their ritual of post-poo bathing in a stagnant pool.
Geography worked against the Essenes because the pool in which they cleansed themselves was filled with run-off collected during the winter months. "Had they been living in Jericho 14 kilometres to the north, where one finds fresh spring water, or in other sites whereby one has an oasis, they would have lived quite well," Zias says.
The location of the latrine at Qumran conforms with the directions laid down in the Dead Sea Scrolls, proving that the Essene lived there, Zias claims. Sanitation around the time of the Essenes was good, and ordinary people were unlikely to go so far out of the city to defecate.
If his theory is correct, it might therefore carry a lesson about religious fundamentalism, Zias adds. "It shows what happens when people take biblical things too fundamentally or literally, as they do in many parts of the world, and what the ultimate consequences are."

“It shows what happens when people take biblical things too literally.”

Reference: http://www.nature.com/news/2006/061113/full/news061113-5.html

So, briefly, because of their toilet habits, the soil in the selected area became grossly infected with round worm eggs and walking barefoot or touching the soil with bare hands (how else do you dig but with a hand held implement) led to more and more infections. Piling sh*t on sh*t as it were, the water in which they washed was not running water, and it also became contaminated with worm eggs etc.

You likely noted from the above article that the skeletal remains at the site all seem to be of a younger age, indicating that the continual infections made them sicker and sicker.

That's the price of blind obedience.