fulltimestudent

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Posts by fulltimestudent

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  8

  Parallel holidays

  by Clambake in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  so my wife congregation had a huge wing ding on jan. 2 complete with live band / food dancing and alcohol.

  yet her company had a yearend party on nov. 15 which she couldn’t go to because it could be perceived as a christmas party.

  i am supposed to be worried that the third century church set up a parallel festival with the winter solace to try and get pagans to convert to christianity but they pull crap like this ?

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  fulltimestudent

  BluesBrother : Yes, it is just finding a way to get around the rules, and have some fun anyway.

  
  

  That's it?

  There is a human need to have things like festivals and celebrations. All religions have them. I always thought that Assemblies were meant to take the place of Christendom's festivals. If so, most were on the dour side.

  
  

  In my own family I made our wedding anniversary a family festival complete with presents and an special dinner. The human experience is that there's always a way around problems.
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  15

  Any William Miller Scholars out there?

  by neverendingjourney in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for those who may not be aware, the 1914 date was arrived at by russell by using the same framework of the failed prophetic interpretations of the adventist preacher william miller.

  see this chart:.

  if you look at the top right of the chart, he uses the same 7-times reasoning to arrive at the 2,520 years (7 times=7 multiplied by 360-day years=2,520 years).

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  fulltimestudent

  Millerism informed generations of American Christians. The line of thought definitely influenced Charlie R.
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  74

  Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

  by TMS in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

  we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

  some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

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  fulltimestudent

  Another story - not everyone liked that sudden and exhilarating 'spring.' A sister (we were quite close at one time) finding all those changes a little difficult to deal with said to me one day. I liked it when everything was black and white, now everything is some shade of grey and you've got to work out how grey is too grey.

  OK. Brooklyn soon fixed that up.

  ---------------------------

  On another topic - I noted somewhere that Vaughn Guy is now on the Aussie Branch Committee. I always found him an easy guy to deal with. I wonder what he's like now?
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  74

  Living Through the Brief Liberalization of Jehovah's Witnesses, Never Recovering

  by TMS in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with the book crisis of conscience detailing the turbulence at bethel during the early to mid 70's, the transformation from autocratic rule to governance by committee or a body of men, many of us can speak to how that felt among the rank and file of the local congregations during those years.

  we learned new concepts based in large part to research done for the aid to bible understanding volume, then we were asked or coerced into unlearning those principles, going back to the old ways.

  some of us never readjusted, finding ourselves very different from our more hardline compadres.. the inertia for the changes that eventually were initiated in the congregations came from the discovery that the greek words episkopos and presbyteros were used biblically to refer to all qualified men in a congregation, not just one.

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  fulltimestudent

  
  

  Ultimate Axiom : I remember a great deal of intellectual freedom ...

  Yeah! I recall that too.

  And then the 'shutdown.' haha!!!!

  It really pissed one of my friends off. He had a young family after pioneering and continually struggled to make ends meet for his family. ( YHWH will provide - bullshit!)

  His father-in-law had come off the circuit work and was being 'developed' as a writer (including, it seems, articles with a spiritual content). As, I remember it, Dave Madzay had something to do with that 'writing' team, and Dave always seemed to me to be on the 'left' rather than the 'right (grin) but then he had be a bit liberal because of his drinking problem (another grin).

  Anyway, with this new liberal intellectual attitude, they were apparently allowed to use some previously forbidden, publications used in academic research and churches. I forget what the name of this 'Bible aid' was but it was a set of volumes and cost in those days, some 500 dollars (a few weeks wages as I recall it).

  Father-in-law tells son-in-law how helpful it would be to his writing research to have this $500 dollar research help. Son-in-law ever-conscious of serving YHWH, decides to buy this $500 set that has suddenly become a spiritual treasure for his father-in-law and his family goes without whatever.

  A few years later, the heavenly weather changes, and consulting anything from non-JW sources is suddenly forbidden (again) and the $500 volumes go into the garbage bin.

  My friend took it on the chin like the faithful Christian that he was (then), but I think it was the beginning of his awareness that led to his freedom ( he is now a sceptic).

  
  

  Maybe $500 was cheap to be free from bloody old YHWH and his Jesus side-kick.
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  47

  Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

  by TTWSYF in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

  some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

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  fulltimestudent

  Mephis :And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
  Again, that is the future tense. Even according to Matthew, written half a century later, the 'church' (ekklesia) doesn't exist when he says that to Peter. It is not "and on this rock I am building my church" or "on this rock I have built my church".

  And that's assuming Matthew has it right.

  
  Haha! But the Matthew document (written by whom?) isn't the only document that mentions succession. The Gospel of Thomas, has another perspective:
  

  
  "The disciples said to Jesus: We know that thou wilt go from us. Who is he who shall be great over us? Jesus said to them: In the place to which you come, you shall go to James the Just for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." (Gos.Thom. 12)

  
  Ben Witherington III, another contemporary student of early Christianity, in his "New Testament History: A Narrative Account,' and is a believer* discusses the key role played by the family of Jesus, and quotes the above passage, acknowledging that "James played and important and central role in the earliest days of Christianity ..."
  He then quotes the early church historians, Eusebius and Epiphanius, that the first two bishops ot the church in Jerusalem were relative of Jesus - James and Simeon, and refers to evidence** that the grandsons of Jesus' other brother Jude (likely author of the NT letter of that name).
  Interestingly, he continues that:

  "What little evidence we have does not encourage us to think that Galilean Christianity under the family of Jesus, and perhaps some of the Twelve, was any less Jewish than the Jerusalem-centred community."

  In other words, Christianity (at first) was a Jewish sect, in the same way that the Essenes were a Jewish sect, which is also the point that Vermes was making, as I noted in my previous post.
  We can only guess how James got involved in the early church, and how James and Peter sorted out their respective roles.
  
  
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  * In the dedication of the above-mentioned book he acknowledges a R.D.H., who has been the hands of Jesus in my life.
  
  ** R.Bauckham, Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church, (Edinburgh: Clark,1990)
  
  
  
  
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  11

  Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

  this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

  in the book a few things i noticed.

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  fulltimestudent

  Lieu : These missing or omitted texts make me wonder.
  1. At the writing of revelation, Christians are on the run AWAY from Roman territories. The 7 congregations mentioned are all in what's now Turkey.

  This map may help you to picture the Roman empire about the end of the 3rd Century CE.

  

  
  

  After Constantine became Emperor, he built a new capital for the Empire and named it Constantinople. It was renamed by the Ottomans when they captured the city as Istanbul.

  As can be seen on this next map. Nicaea is not so far from Constantinople.

  
  

  
  

  The Orthodox (eastern) churches make more fuss over the first council of Nicea that Protestant churches. This Othodox religious icon glorifies the council

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  And also in that part of the empire (and also part of modern Turkey) are the seven churches of Revelation.

  
  

  
  

  Its good you're wondering about it all!
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  11

  Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

  this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

  in the book a few things i noticed.

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  fulltimestudent

  There is also a claim that Jesus quoted from the Book of Enoch. That is I think, a bit of a stretch, the use of similar wording does not necessarily mean a direct quote, and then again, if Jesus is quoted accuratedly it may just means that both Jesus and the author of the Enoch document had read (or, heard of) some other document that is now lost. For what its worth here's a list of claimed usage.

  Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
  
  the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
  
  shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
  
  "Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
  
  Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
  
  Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
  
  between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
  
  In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
  
  that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})
  
  the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})
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  11

  Reading the book of Enoch found some gems.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  first off the book of enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

  this to me proves that this book was as important to the jews back then as any other.

  in the book a few things i noticed.

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  fulltimestudent

  Crazyguy : First off the book of Enoch or at least some of it's writings we're found among the dead sea scrolls.

  I agree its an important reference for us today. But its mere presence among the DDS found at Qumran need not prove that it was considered important. We need to understand why they may have considered it important.

  freemindfade : I've always found this text interesting as well. This plus the book of Enoch is quoted in the bible book of James.

  I went looking for the James reference, and couldn't find one. Would you mind posting it?

  
  

  It also occurred to me that perhaps you may have meant Jesus' other brother Jude?

  
  

  Its accepted by some that Jude was quoting the Enoch document,

  Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1]
  "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
  "To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

  
  

  
  
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  1

  Not Everything in Russia is serious -What do people think of a naked woman climbing down a ladder

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is from a russian tv show called 'naked and funny,' reminiscent of american tv shows in the 50s/60s.

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  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkrse4gvvue.

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  fulltimestudent

  This is from a Russian TV show called 'Naked and Funny,' reminiscent of American TV shows in the 50s/60s.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkRsE4gvvuE
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  6

  Curiousity interest - Russian President Putin Attends Orthodox Christmas Mass last week in Turginovo Church

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. social
  2. current

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvfi14wdugo

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  fulltimestudent

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfI14WDuGo