Posts by fulltimestudent

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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fulltimestudent

David_Jay : Fulltimstudent,
I've run into this more than several times on this site, and while it surprises me that some people are not aware of this, but just becuase I report something does not mean i condone it, approve of it, agree with it, believe it, or have any emotional investment I it. I am not the type of person to only speak up on those subjects that benefit me or side with my views or convictions. ...

Yes, I'm sure you have come across the ideas. But adding fable to myth does not make it useful.

DJ continued:Beyond finding this very interesting in the history of Jewish-Christian relations, I am merely a watcher from the sidelines. I have no personal views or opinions regarding any of the parties involved.

Thank you for clarifying your position as an independent observer.

Much of my post was directed, not at the concept of Jewish acknowledgement of Christianity, but at the glib passing over of the terrorist actions that accompanied the illegal seizure of Palestianian land preceding the declaration of the State of Israel.

That action had a destabilizing effect on West Asia and can now be seen as being a major cause of the terrorism that is spreading over the world.

We should not forget that Jewish terrorism was the modern spark that lit the fire of today's terrorism.

Neither should we forget the mythical encouragement of genocide by the Jewish God, YHWH, during the Jewish invasion of Canaan and his command to "slay utterly."

There is nothing noble or humanitarian in this religion.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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fulltimestudent

David, I'm sorry to be sceptical, I saw the names of the rabbi's whose signed the letter on the web-site you linked for us, but what percentage of all Jewish rabbis would that be?

Are there rabbis who oppose this notion?

Further, it all sounds to me a bit like the ancient arrangement, "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." So I'm quite unable to see how it supersedes anything previously known about this topic

But moving on, you described a critical part of the process by which modern Israel was established rather glibly, when you wrote:

"After World War II when the Axis powers fell, and the Jews returned to their homeland with the birth of the new republic of Israel."

In dispossessing the inhabitants of Palestine post WW2 were the Jews acting legally or illegally. If legal, then do, I having Anglo-saxon ancestry, have the right to go back to the UK and take back the lands that French-Norman invaders of England, stole from my ancestors post 1066 CE? If the Jewish actions set a legal precedent, then the world is going to have huge disturbances as all kinds of peoples attempt to regain their ancestral heritages. The dispossession of the Palestinians by Jews is a major reason for political unrest in the middle east, and the terrorism that accompanies it?

Is that terrorism right or wrong?

If you argue that its wrong, how would you justify the terrorism used by Jews to gain control of Palestine post WW2?

Do you imagine that YHWH approved the actions of Jewish terrorists in their campaign for an independent state in Palestine?

As Palestinians attempt to regain their lost territory (to which they once had legal title), are they justified in using terrorism?

Many acts of terrorism were performed by Jewish terrorists in their 'war' attempting to expel the British (who had been mandated by the Versailles peace treaty following WW1.)

You can read some of them on this web-site: http://www.iamthewitness.com/doc/Bunche.Report.on.Zionist.Terrorism.in.the.Near.East.htm

Quote: The report is a compilation of all identified terrorist attacks on British, American and Arab individuals and entities from the assassination of the British Resident Minister in the Middle East on November 6, 1944 by members of the terrorist Jewish Stern gang to the assassination of Count Bernadotte on September 17, 1948 by members of this same gang of fanatics.
This information is compiled from reports of the US Department of State, the British Foreign Office and various American and British press services.
New York, October 1, 1948

I ask again, were those terrorist acts approved by YHWH?

Here's one (selected at random):

March 22, 1945, Cairo. The two convicted Jewish Stern gang terrorists who murdered Lord Moyne and his driver were hanged in the Cairo prison British authorities announced.

Will those two terrorists have a resurrection?

11

Elders face the Lion of Self-Abuse

by Watchtower-Free in

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fulltimestudent

Giordano : You know the WT is 100% right........ using a lion!

Hmm? I have no problem with your essential premise, but I have some problems with the biblical usage of lion imagery.

Some random thoughts:

Why? the Revelation images Jesus as both a lamb and a lion, essentially a victim and avictor. OK, I more or less get that bit of Christian theology, but lions are more than 'killers' of victims as when 1 Peter 5:8 presents Satan as a 'raging lion seeking to devour us.' Is Jesus also a raging lion seeking to devour us by controlling our lives. Isn't most of what we did as JWs, things that 'Christianity' demands of its followers?.

So what else do lions do? As our friend Giordano reminds us they have sexual endurance. Is that aspect of lionology a good image for Christians? If not. why not? If some aspects of lion-life are great images for Christians, why not all aspects? After all, if YHWH inspires Bible writers, how could he ignore some points of the illustrations he supposedly inspires? He MUST KNOW ALL about lion-life. That famous Psalm (104) that praises YHWH as creator notes in verse 21,

"The maned young lions are roaring for the prey, And for seeking their food from God himself."

So YHWH gives the ravenous young lions their "food." which distorts the imagery of 1 Peter 5:8, doesn't it?

There's another aspect of lion-life that enlightens our image of Jesus as the Lion of Judah. Have you ever imagined Jesus as evidenced in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsfZbfCNOds

11

Elders face the Lion of Self-Abuse

by Watchtower-Free in

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fulltimestudent

Poor sex-starved buggers!

41

If all the world were JWs....

by Tornintwo in

jw
friends

in my former indoctrinated state, i used to yearn for a time when all the world would be jws.

but hang on minute, let's just think about what the world would be like if everyone was a jw,.

first of all, no higher education, so no medical advances, no scientific research, no modern day medicine, infectious disease rife, no doctors, no engineers, so no modern day comforts.

fulltimestudent

Tornintwo : In my former indoctrinated state, I used to yearn for a time when all the world would be jws.
But hang on minute, let's just think about what the world would be like if everyone was a jw,
First of all, no higher education, so no medical advances, no scientific research, no modern day medicine, infectious disease rife, no doctors, no engineers, so no modern day comforts.

Not sure where your located Tornintwo, but where I live (Sydney, Aust) my recollections are that we thought we were going to become very highly educated.

We would discuss, what it would be like to be personally taught by YHWH and his sidekick who of course are superlative scientists (just look at the Universe - but not too hard, please).

There would of course, be no need for modern medicine, as our human bodies, gradually restored to perfection, cast off all their imperfections. And perhaps no need for engineering as we would be taught how to live in perfect balance with nature.

So what were YHWH and sidekick Jesus going to teach us? Aha, nothing less than the secrets of creation - the pure science behind the physical universe. How I used to long for that time, to be in whatever class (as in a school) Jesus (in his Proverbs 8 role) assigned me, and learn from them, until I could say ... "Counsel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine. (Prov. 8:14).

Oh! what wonderful dreams we had, as we smoked the opium pipes of this religion !!!!

29

EXJW's in Mensa?

by Luther bertrand in

jw
friends

any exjw's or faders out there in mensa?

any online groups for this niche?

fulltimestudent

So far away from Freddy's imagined happenings in the Judeao-Christian superworld, there's a game show called 'The Brain (?). The question mark being replaced by the name of whichever country the shows produced in. It has a German origin, but the version I'm currently intrigued by, is a Chinese version, hence its, "The Brain-China."

The Wikipedia entry for this TV show describes three phases (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_(game_show)

Phase 1, A qualifier round (a search for people with special mental skills)

Phase 2, An elimination round.

Phase 3, Challenges.

The judges are experts in neuroscience.

There are annoying aspects in the current version (have not previously watched the earlier versions), that may mainly be attributed to its TV roots, but otherwise its interesting to watch people with special mental skills.

Recently an "idiot savant", often ridiculed in his small home village as an imbecile, beat a mathematics professor (from a prestigious university), in complex mental, mathematical calculations. Interesting to watch. Of course, the mainly young audience (students?) all seemed to have the answers in seconds from their scientific calculators. (will their calculating abilities atrophy?). Of course, complex calculations are one of the things that I.S. are good at.

In Australia, this show can be seen (with sub-titling) on SBS-32.

Thinking of Freddy F, is there a class of idiot savants who excel in their imagination? That would explain a lot (grin).

(edited to add - Grreat teacher, Did not see your post until after finishing this one. Our minds are in tune)

29

EXJW's in Mensa?

by Luther bertrand in

jw
friends

any exjw's or faders out there in mensa?

any online groups for this niche?

fulltimestudent

Mensa and humour - years ago I managed a small company owned by a guy who was a member of Mensa.

We would sometimes get out of the office to have a quiet talk, free from the everyday burdens of business. I recall at one such pub/coffee shop meetup, we discussed the role of intelligence in life.

Naively, I thought (then) that intelligence and wisdom were connected. My boss shocked me by telling me that likely the most intelligent person in the Australian branch of Mensa was an invalid pensioner who lived in small shack, on the edge of a desert town somewhere in Australia. This person, claimed my former boss, was so intelligent that he couldn't hold down a job,

What do you think?

I have sometimes wondered whether Freddy F was in the same category?

29

Gay advice from the Governing Body

by Listener in

according to them you are not gay if you are attracted to the same sex, it's just hormones and you might grow out of it.. i wonder what hormones in particular they are talking about and if they feel that a female who goes through menopause is in danger of turning gay or even if taking hormones will adjust your thinking?.

this is from the wt org website.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/ask/pressure-to-be-gay/.

fulltimestudent

cofty : Genuine question - is it not true that same-sex attraction can be a phase for some young people?

Its difficult to be definitive on this issue. Part of the problem is the clouded definitions.

Is homosexuality based on actions or inclinations? For example, Kinsey's* famous work and his conclusions were seemingly all based on activity, rather than desire.

See: http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-hhscale.html

That research led to a question, how do you classify a person who has sex with someone of the same sex once in their life, as against someone that does so every day? Hence the development of that scale. (Further consideration has led to more complex versions of the scale). And more, what classification should be used for a person who often wants to, but never can find the courage to do it?

A bi-sexual classification is another development (I think) of Kinsey's published work.

And, today - after centuries of bitter Christian church (and other religious) condemnation, which has certainly obscured the issues and even though most western countries have legalised same sex activity, discrimination and prejudice continues and obfuscates the answers to Cofty's question.

So its interesting to compare today's attitudes to periods in the past when same sex sexual activities were celebrated.

For example, ancient Greece (particularly, in terms of available information - Athens and Sparta). In both societies male to male romances were part of the social life of those cities, even though the participants were likely married.

See this recognised ancient history site, Livius: http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/greek-homosexuality/ )

But the era that may offer the best answer to Cofty's question is Edo era Japan (and East Asia more generally). Particularly, in the 17th and early 18th century, Japanese men can be seen as sliding easily between sex with women and sex with beautiful young men. I do not think it was purely a matter of effeminancy, as its also on record that young warriors were objects of desire on the part of older men.

Its an era in which I do a lot of research, (particularly for the interest of my gayxjw friend).

If you want to try and understand how a society can be radically different to our own (western) society may I suggest these books.

Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan. 1995, Uni of California Press. The author is Professor Gary Leupp, who teaches history at Tufts University.

The Love of the Samurai: A Thousand Years of Japanese Homosexuality. 1989, GMP Publishers. The authors are Tsuneo Watanabe and Junichi Iwata.

Cartographies of Desire: Male-Male Sexuality in Japanese Discourse-1600-1950. 2007, Uni of California Press. Author: Gregory M. Pflugfelder, Associate Professor, Department of History, Columbia University.

Sex and the Floating World: Erotic Images in Japan, 1700 -1820. 2009, Reaktion Books. The author is Timon Screech, Professor of the history of art at the School of Oriental and African Studies(SOAS), University of London.

And in particular, may I suggest this book, if you really want to understand a natural view of sex uncontaminated by the Christian church (The Japanese slaughtered nearly all their Christians in the 17th C.) It is a compilation of senryu, or short 'dirty' (in the western sense, but not the Japanese sense) verse.

The Woman Without a Hole & other Risky Themes from Old Japanese Poems, 2007, Paraverse Press - which is a self publishing title, The translator is Robin Gill, and an independent scholar. In this volume Gill considerably expands our understanding of Japanese sexuality, finding no clear line between hetero and homo - sexuality, so many of these short verses painting an image of a fashionable young crowd as likely having simultaneous desire for a young man and a woman. One may think this is bi-sexuality, but one of my lecturer's prefers the term, omni-sexual. I think its just a sense of, "I feel like sex tonight, whose around that attracts me?"

This doesn't really answer your question Cofty, but I hope it expands your thinking on the topic.

29

Gay advice from the Governing Body

by Listener in

according to them you are not gay if you are attracted to the same sex, it's just hormones and you might grow out of it.. i wonder what hormones in particular they are talking about and if they feel that a female who goes through menopause is in danger of turning gay or even if taking hormones will adjust your thinking?.

this is from the wt org website.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/ask/pressure-to-be-gay/.

fulltimestudent

Bloody fools!

11

Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls-Do the Scrolls Help us Understand Early Christianity?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i think most scholarship would agree with a positive answer to that question.

but let's take a look for oursselves.

geza vermes, in his excellent translation ( the complete dead sea scrolls in english-penguin.

fulltimestudent

TTWSYF : Do get the real feel of the early Christian Church you could [should] consult the church fathers and their writings. That is the real deal on what the early church was all about. It's important to remember that the bible followed the church [like 350 years later], the church didn't follow the bible [like it does for so many later Christian orgs]. Below is a copied/pasted article on a few early church fathers from Wikipedia. Notice that their writings are still preserved and available.
Sorry, no comment on the dead sea scrolls

I could not agree more, that to build an understanding of the early church we also need to consult the writings of the so-called 'fathers' of the church.

And, on that issue, may I recommend the Oxford University Press publication, "After the New Testament - A Reader in Early Christianity," edited by Bart D. Ehrman. It contains sample of the writings on 14 major topics of importance in understanding the development of the early church.

BTW, have you considered that use of the word 'development' implies that the church did not spring fully formed from the mind of Jesus.

Study of the Qumran scrolls, permits us to see (for the first time) a kind of parallel development of a Jewish sect that had many similarities to the Jesus sect. The scrolls allow some insight as to what topics were on the minds of fervent Jewish worshippers of YHWH.

For example, "The Didache," (literally, the teaching) understood to be the teachings of the 12 Apostles. It is if you like, the first "Church manual," or in a JW context, the first set of instructions to elders (or, whatever they now call it). Its background is that in the beginning (it seems) the recognised Apostles set the rules and made decisions on new issues. (quite a standard procedure in the development of most organisations- a central authority making up rules as they go along).

Here you will find much, that backgrounds both the conventional church and the JW variant. As an example, consider the instruction in Section 15, verse 3:

" Furthermore, do not reprove each other angrily, but quietly, as you find it in the gospel. Moreover, if anyone has wronged his neighbour, nobody must speak to him, and he must not hear a word from you, until he repents."

You'll appreciate that point as a hot-button issue for most ex-JWs. But we can see that it was likely a rule in the early church.

Was there anything similar in the form of Judaism in the first centuries BCE and CE?

Checking the Qumran scrolls we find:

"Whoever has murmered against the authority of the Community shall be expelled and shall not return." ( 1QS vii, 17).

It becomes clear as you read these scrolls that there was a complex network of rules governing offenses "against" the community (organisation).