Posts by fulltimestudent

17

I need food for thought..

by raven in

hi friends,it has been 20 years that i've slaved for the wt and through out the past couple of years i could feel myself fighting an urge to accept that something was not right.

i fought it off for so long only for it to resurface frequently throughout my years of pioneering, assembly/convention parts, & speaking with people about the "truth", slaving and giving to try to be a "spiritual person" but in reality i was not spiritual because spirituality (according to the org) is doing all of the things they want you to do.

which then will label you as spiritual... no !!!

fulltimestudent

Hello Raven - I wouldn't worry too much. Taking time out of the frenetic WT way of life to reflect on what you've been doing for 20 years, is a good thing. Even though I wasted my life - well, I cant change the past, but I've survived and I greatly enjoy myself intellectually.

Many here have reported that they felt depressed in this period of their lives, I know I did. I went walking a lot - that helped me. I was disfellowshipped, so that was an emotional burden after 40 years in that religion. Turned out to be my "get out of gaol" card. (grin)

But you asked for suggestions about books.

May I suggest these.

Geza Vermes (trans), The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English. Penguin, 2004.

There are a lot of editions, try to find the latest (2004? ) as they likely have more information. I suggest this book because its informative to examine the development of a parallel Jewish sect that likely influenced early Christianity.

Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30-325. Allen Lane 2012.

Vermes is (IMO) an excellent Bible scholar, and in this book he traces what we know of the development of early Christianity.

And if they sound sort of heavy going after 20 years a WT Slave, (another grin) try this one.

Daniel Boyarin, The Jewish Gospels - The Story of the Jewish Christ, The New Press, 2013.

Some scholars think that Boyarin is one of the best Jewish Scholars. In this book Boyarin examines what contemporary (to Jesus) Jewish writers were thinking about the messiah.

A good library may have those books, if not try a university library.

25

Update - Talk # 6 THE FLOOD OF NOAH’S DAY AND YOU

by ttdtt in

instead of scraping this talk they updated it.. so they still try and make this look like it happened, and that there is plenty of evidence.to do that they refer to the (w08 6/1 8) found at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008411the main evidence is that floods have happened in the past, including.... geologists studying the landscape of the northwestern united states believe that as many as 100 ancient catastrophic floods once washed over the area.

one such flood is said to have roared through the region with a wall of water 2,000 feet [600 m] high, traveling at 65 miles an hour [105 km/hr]—a flood of 500 cubic miles [2,000 cu km] of water, weighing more than two trillion tons.

similar findings have led other scientists to believe that a global flood is a distinct possibility.. i could not find such an event, except for remembering one of those "disaster" shows on discover about that.

fulltimestudent

Flood Legends:

Most (if not all) early human settlements were located close to rivers (for continuity of water supplies). If heavy rains occur, then the rivers flooded, and settlements may have been wiped out and some loss of life likely occurred. So it would seem that flood stories were often told, and likely (since they were oral stories) stories would be telescoped together.

When writing developed (and practical writing materials including a medium to write on) the stories that had been memorised for ages began to be recorded in writing. But there was a practical problem, what you could write was limited by the medium (and whether we would ever read it now was dependent on its durability) on which someone could write the story.

There were limits on the amount of writing material available. Around the Euphrates/Tigris river system, clay was used, so we have a flood story that endured, written on a clay cuneiform dated to the seventeenth century BCE and earlier. (That's much older than "Israel," so we'd have to say that it is the original flood story, and the Hebrew version (in Genesis) was developed from the Sumerian version.

You can read some details of the Sumerian version at this link: http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood2.html

In part the author says:

Quote: "The Great Flood: mythological story about a great destruction that once befell the earth. There are several variants; the Biblical version is the most famous. The possibility that there is a historical event behind the story (a local flood in southern Babylonia in the twenty-eighth century BCE) can not be excluded."

Quote: "The story of the Great Flood has its origins in Sumer, the southern part of ancient Babylonia. Even though the younger Epic of Atrahasis and theEpic of Gilgameš, written in Babylonian, change many details, they continue to refer to Šuruppak as the city of the hero of the Flood story, even though the Sumerian name of the hero, Ziusudra, has been changed into Atrahasis or Ut-napištim. In the youngest Babylonian version, by Berossus, we see the original name return: testimony to the vitality of the Sumerian story, which has been called Eridu Genesis by modern scholars.

Quote: "The story survives on a cuneiform tablet from the seventeenth century BCE, of which only the lower third survives. However, this is sufficient to establish that the pattern described above was already present. However, there are small differences. The Eridu Genesis must have begun with the Creation of Man, but continues with the establishment of kingship and a list of cities. Then comes the list of antediluvian rulers, which confirms the pattern again, and the supreme god Enlil's decision to destroy mankind. The reason was recorded on a missing part of the text, but may have been the noise men created, as it is in the later, Babylonian texts."

-----------------------------------

More to come.

4

The YHWH/JESUS INTELLIGENT DESIGN STUDIO's Penis Designs

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

there are many things to question about the intelligence of the designs emanating from the yhwh/jesus intelligent design studio.. lauren reid, a phd candidate at durham university, writing in 'the conversation,' takes a look at why humans and spider monkeys are the only primates without a bone in their penises.

most mammals have such a bone, which is called a baculum .

humans don't, in spite of the term 'boner,' being in common usage, though whales, horses, rhinos, rabbits, elephants, marsupials and hyenas, were also designed without such a bone.. how does a baculum work?

fulltimestudent

Now let's look at the bean weevil, and you may wonder how long it took YHWH/JESUS to design this instrument of torture.

bean_weevil-02

The bean weevil penis is covered in sharp spikes. Why? A LiveScience description tells us:

The bean weevil, a type of beetle, has developed a less-than-pleasant device for delivering sperm into the female's vagina: Its penis is covered with hard, sharp spikes. Researchers have found that each act of mating scars the female beetle's reproductive tract, resulting in traumatic insemination. It's possible that the injuries directly benefit the males, however, either because they prevent the females from mating again or force them to spend more effort raising their fertilized eggs and thus insuring that the male's genes are passed on and avoid the strain of future liaisons.

So each mating actually becomes torture. Interesting to think how that fits into YHWH/JESUS being about love and kindness?

50

Australia Branch to end magazine printing

by no-zombie in

jw
friends

just one week from the zone overseer's visit is the announcement that the magazine production by the australia branch will end in a few months.

the task being transferred to the japan branch.

while i'm not 100% certain, i understand that this effectively ends all major printing bar perhaps tracts, handbills and other loose items.

fulltimestudent

I'm thinking back to the time when the branch office at Ingleburn was built. I think it was after 1975 and it probably distracted us from thinking too much (then) about Freddy's date fiasco.

It was built by witnesses with a lot of kerfuffle. John Wilson (a nice guy) wanted his room built a special way. As I recall it, he was told he couldn't do that. A friend who came from the commercial construction field went to work there, and ended up calling it 'the funny farm.' (a colloquialism for a mental hospital).

All that work, all that time, and they'll likely sell the place. Suburbia has crept around the area (havn't been out that way for years),

But here's what it looks like. so much land, because they also had a farm there..

Branch of Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia - City of Liverpool, Sydney, NSW

20

Fraud

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.

of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.

all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.

fulltimestudent

pbrow: I am not minimizing the point we both agree with... JWism does indeed steal peoples lives. But it does so by voluntary compliance by the individual dubs.

and

Skedaddle... I too am a born in. My excuse of being brainwashed ended (legally) that is, when I turned 18. No doubt we were indoctrinated. I was so weak minded that it took me 12 more years to get out! That is on me. Who else was going to "do my thinking for me?"

I admire your determination to be personally responsible for your own actions, pbrow. But your thinking is very black and white.

Are all humans born with excellent reasoning abilities? My university study topic (this semester) has told me that humans are not good (naturally) at reasoning things out. So there's another opinion that is worth considering.

In the congregations of JWs, that you my have associated with, were all the people in those congregations equal in thinking ability? I doubt that they were. My personal assessment is that in most of the congregations with which I was associated, more that 60% did not fully understand the reasons for their basic beliefs. More, why are most witnesses drawn from the lower socio-economic groups? These are the precise groups that may have lower reasoning abilities? Its curious that this was also case in early Christianity, at least in the opinion of Paul. Recall the verses:

"...there were not many wise according to the flesh, ... 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise." (1 Corinthians 1:26,27)

Paul attempts to turn that into a virtue, but within about 100 years, the church had turned to platonic thinking (the very thing Paul was likely speaking of) to solve some of their doctrinal hassles.

Why does the GB insist that going to university, where you are more likely to be taught to question things, is likely to turn you away from faith? Come to that, why do fewer people with tertiary education become witnesses?

If we are all responsible entirely for our own actions, why is financial fraud a crime, and spiritual fraud is not?

I may be one of the few people who I could judge to be truly personally responsible for dropping my previous belief that there was no god, and becoming a witness. But, if we could sit and chat personally, you'd likely finish up agreeing that in my life at the time (and only 16/17 years of age), only basic education (very difficult for working class people to attend university when I was young) that emotional played an important role in my decision. Nonetheless, if there had been no churches peddling their fraudulent beliefs, especially a church that believed that all Christians were obligated to become footstep followers of Jesus, I may not have made the stupid mistake that I made.

You can extend my last thought. Try this. If there had been no Jewish religion, then Jesus may not have become deluded and died at a relatively young age. Luke 21:32 indicates his personal belief that he lived in the generation that would see the Divine Kingdom established. We've all been there, haven't we?

Will soccer have a "Bamboo Revolution?"

by fulltimestudent in

quote: (china's) "vision is a bold one – to create a domestic sport industry worth $850 billion.

this is market-making on an epic scale, massively exceeding even the most generous estimates of the global industry’s current size.

given china’s economic and industrial successes over the last two decades, achieved through its model of state-led capitalism, the global sport industry should, therefore, anticipate some profound changes to its structure and dynamic taking place in the coming years.".

fulltimestudent

Quote: (China's) "vision is a bold one – to create a domestic sport industry worth $850 billion. This is market-making on an epic scale, massively exceeding even the most generous estimates of the global industry’s current size. Given China’s economic and industrial successes over the last two decades, achieved through its model of state-led capitalism, the global sport industry should, therefore, anticipate some profound changes to its structure and dynamic taking place in the coming years."

Quote: Quote: "China’s formula for state-led capitalism is one that has already been tried and tested in other industrial sectors. However, before the likes of stadium designers, sponsorship agents and merchandisers begin to anticipate a commercial bonanza, it is worth them noting the socio-cultural peculiarities of Chinese business. Market-entry is scrutinised very carefully while the role of guanxi in business relationships is as evident in sport as it is in other industrial sectors. It is worth noting too that, while Xi has established the country’s vision, it is his entrepreneurial lieutenants who are plotting the course of his revolution."

"... industrialists Wang Jianlin and Jack Ma standout as being focal points for China’s sporting ambitions. Wang is chairman of the Dalian Wanda property group, which has recently purchased a 20 per cent stake in Spain’s Atletico Madrid for US$52m and Infront Sport and Media for $1.2 billion. At the same time, Alibaba owner Ma has acquired 50 per cent of the Asian Champions League’s first Chinese winners, Guangzhou Evergrande, for US$192m, and recently set-up the Alibaba Sports Group. Wang has already stated that he is intent on building a global entertainment axis that stretches from Beijing through Madrid to Hollywood."

Image from Twitter.
Xi Jinping, Sergio Aguero and Prime Minister David Cameron during Xi's recent UK visit. Image from Twitter
Read more at http://www.policyforum.net/footballs-bamboo-revolution/

1

The Aussie governments $284,962 lunch next Thursday and the book of Revelation

by fulltimestudent in

next thursday, 1800 people will sit down to a gala lunch in shanghai's grand hyatt hotel.

the guests comprising members of australia's largest ever overseas trade delegation (1000 strong) and selected chinese guests will be hosted by australia's prime minister, malcolm turnbull.. the trade delegation hopes to capitalise on the very favourable opportunities opened to australian businesses by a recently concluded free trade agreement,between china and australia.. the expense the aussie government is prepared to spend, highlights the key place that modern china has come to occupy in modern globalised commerce.

its a pity that freddy f is not still alive to find a prophetic fulfillment of revelation in the current rise of china.

fulltimestudent

The last paragraph in my first post (although a bit of nonsense) raises a question.

The Silk Road Trade Network (mentioned in revelation 18) is about the only one of any of all the documents that comprise the Bible bothers to discuss anything to do with India and China, despite the fact that even in second temple times, they likely comprised nearly 50% of the world's population.

Are YHWH and his JESUS sidekick, really so insular that they ignore nearly 50% of the people of the earth?

So who does rate with the YHWH/JESUS combo God? Well, there's Egypt, and Assyria and Babylon and Persia and then Rome (OK, the Greeks only get a little bit of attention, despite the importance of Alexander defeating YHWH's champion Persia). Besides the above, there's lots of mention of itty bitty local groups like the Canaanites and the Philistines, and the Edomites, and the Moabites and the Midianites, etc.

And when you take a hard look at these groups, plus the bigger world powers, what do they all have in common from the Biblical perspective?

This, most of them were fighting against Israel and (particularly the world powers) defeating Israel/Judah. And YHWH and JESUS were unable to defend Israel.

The Bible then was written by humans who were wingeing about some other nation fighting them and usually defeating them.

So here's YHWH should've been taking notice of what was happening in Asia>

Rush Doshi explains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaj8aqkdbA

20

Fraud

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.

of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.

all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.

fulltimestudent

pbrow,

There is some distance between personal belief and organised religion. You illustrated your argument with your mother's decision to shun you because of her (somewhat selfish) hope of a reward in the paradise (an unverifiable and likely false hope). Your mother's allegiance is to an organisation that keeps encouraging her to continue to shun you. If there was no such organisation, your mother would have to work out a balance between her personal belief and her natural love for you, and her natural (innate) love would likely win out over an imagined reward of life in a paradise.

Why do you think the JW organisation (as did early Christianity and similar Jewish cults of the era, like the Essenes) try to isolate members from general society? Why do you imagine the WTS discourages people from seeking tertiary studies?

There is some evidence that the WTS uses this dogma (shunning) as a means to emotionally blackmail members who may be thinking of leaving. (Many years ago an exjw who had access to the leadership clique in Australia, was told when he said he discussed leaving (by someone close to the branch committee), "Don't forget we still have your children." (These children were in their early 20s).

There is no need to prosecute anyone for personal belief, unless that personal belief impinges on someone else's rights.

1

The Aussie governments $284,962 lunch next Thursday and the book of Revelation

by fulltimestudent in

next thursday, 1800 people will sit down to a gala lunch in shanghai's grand hyatt hotel.

the guests comprising members of australia's largest ever overseas trade delegation (1000 strong) and selected chinese guests will be hosted by australia's prime minister, malcolm turnbull.. the trade delegation hopes to capitalise on the very favourable opportunities opened to australian businesses by a recently concluded free trade agreement,between china and australia.. the expense the aussie government is prepared to spend, highlights the key place that modern china has come to occupy in modern globalised commerce.

its a pity that freddy f is not still alive to find a prophetic fulfillment of revelation in the current rise of china.

fulltimestudent

Next thursday, 1800 people will sit down to a gala lunch in Shanghai's Grand Hyatt hotel. The guests comprising members of Australia's largest ever overseas trade delegation (1000 strong) and selected Chinese guests will be hosted by Australia's Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull.

The trade delegation hopes to capitalise on the very favourable opportunities opened to Australian businesses by a recently concluded Free Trade Agreement,between China and Australia.

The expense the Aussie government is prepared to spend, highlights the key place that modern China has come to occupy in modern globalised commerce

Its a pity that Freddy F is not still alive to find a prophetic fulfillment of Revelation in the current rise of China. (grin)

Few realise that when the author of Revelation speaks of the wealth made by 'travelling merchants' in their sale of luxury products to the Roman elite, (Revelation 18) the author was referring to the trade between Rome and west Asia and east Asia/south Asia (China and India), commonly called the 'Silk Road Trade.'

Just how the mind of Freddy F. could've tied the Revelation texts to modern trade is a bit beyond my imaginative powers, but I have a lot confidence that Freddy could've found a way to do it.

For anyone with a studious bent, and an interest in the historical reality behind the religious imaginings expressed in the Revelation, may I recommend J.Nelson Kraybill's, Imperial Cult and Commerce in John's Apocalypse, (Sheffield Academic Press, 1996). Kraybill attributes the hatred expressed by the Revelation's author for that trade to the fact that the Roman Imperial Cult was a patron of the Silk Road Trade.

Of course, Freddy F's imaginings about Revelation may have missed the point. The early Christian church, disappointed by the failure of promises by Jesus to his immediately 'coming in power and great glory,' and the seeming undefeatable power of the Roman Empire when it destroyed the Jerusalem Temple (and turned Jerusalem into a Roman city), turned to imagining the 'Church' as the city of God. Perhaps the rise of China in modern commerce, and the great prosperity of Chinese people is a fulfillment of the reign of Jesus Christ. (slight giggle)

25

Very Weird Experience During Recent Special Talk After Memorial

by Tenacious in

hesitantly i attended this talk with my family and sat through it without batting an eye.. mentally i take myself out during the entire meeting some would describe this as daydreaming or zoning out.

whatever the case may be, for some reason this particular speaker, whom i know of but not personally, got my attention the way he would say certain phrases.

he cited some texts that directly advised the audience that faith in christ was the only way to salvation.

fulltimestudent

Witness dogma does not refuse any role to Jesus, but is a bit cloudy on the issue being discussed.

In any case early Christianity was also a bit cloudy on correct prayer formats. According to Geza Vermes, one of the best of modern scholars, Paul NEVER prayed directly to Jesus. (Some claim one exception to that, but the actual text is subject to some dispute).

See, Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD30-325. Allen Lane 2012 pp 112-113