ttdtt - Are you serious?
The OT and the NT judge homosexuality. Paul says homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom. Are you seriously suggesting the WT could get away with permitting gay sex?
10% of all mammals exhibit homosexual or bisexual activity
Only humans and domestic sheep display lifelong homosexual preference even when hetrosexual sex is available.
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There are two propositions to be challenged in this part of the conversation.
First ttdtt's assertion, that: "10% of all mammals exhibit homosexual or bisexual activity"
A very high number of animal species (including, but not limited to mammals) can exhibit sexual behaviour with the same sex. Bruce Bagemihl's acclaimed analysis of zoological research on animal sexual behaviour discusses evidence of same sex, sexual behaviour in 450 different species of animals.
Because Bagemihl's work was essentially a meta study, analysing the work of many other zoologists, I do not think his conclusions have been seriously challenged.
It leaves a big hole in the Christian (including our former loving brothers and sisters) claim that the creation work of the YHWH/JESUS design team is always consistent with their moral laws.
The other assertion I wish to challenge is your (Cofty's) assertion that:
"Only humans and domestic sheep display lifelong homosexual preference even when heterosexual sex is available."
For example (just to cite two other species), Bagemihl, cites field work reports that some species of penguin's have been observed where some male bird's develop 'homosexual pair bonds' that last for the life span of the birds.
A sort of pair bonding also seems to develop with male elephants, and there are others.
However, the real problem with the remark is that it ignores the research that indicates that the 'natural' sexuality of most animal species is a sexual fluidity. This concept more easily explains the reality that can be observed in the natural world (human's included).
If non-one does any other research on the topic, have a look at the reviews of Bagemihl's book on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X
and maybe this page in Noel Castree's, "Making Sense of Nature." (p.85 of the google books site).
fulltimestudent
JoinedPosts by fulltimestudent
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New ANTI-GAY video for Kids on jw.org
by ttdtt inhttps://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/children/become-jehovahs-friend/videos/one-man-one-woman-marriage/.
disgusting!.
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fulltimestudent
Cofty: -
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New ANTI-GAY video for Kids on jw.org
by ttdtt inhttps://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/children/become-jehovahs-friend/videos/one-man-one-woman-marriage/.
disgusting!.
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fulltimestudent
steve2: Given the sheer number of gay and lesbian individuals "produced" in JW marriages, this is indeed rich in irony.
And, we should not forget that the witnesses say that same sex attracted people can 'change.' But the evidence is that they do not change, they merely live a life of deceit, attempting to be 'straight.' Ask the wives (or, former wives) of so many people who tried to 'change' in the watchtower way. These sad guys do not experience heterosexual sexual attraction. They are the victims of christian fraud (the JWs are not the only christian group who make this claim).
The second false claim in the above video, is that God created humans, "male and female." Simplistic thinkers like the witnesses think that having a penis or vagina, makes you male of female. But the reality is that sex and gender (two different things) is much more complex than that.
All humans born of women (and that includes the historical Jesus) started life in a form that can be described as gender neutral, or even female. Take a look at the following 2 videos to glimpse reality and not the fake social construction foisted on the poor bloody kids in the above JW video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Kdoja3hlk
And, as for women (and the so-called womanly virtues in the fake 'christian' social construction) they too are very different to the image of women in the above video, as the following video will demonstrate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4LbOnkakjA
The reality of human life, contrasted with the fake social construction taught by the witnesses, tells us something else. It tells us why the witnesses discourage tertiary (university) education. Never let the facts spoil a fictional story.
One last thing: There were many males in ancient Israel who were prepared to have sex with other men. Open your bibles children and turn to 1 Kings 14:24:
And there were also sodomites in the land. (KJV):
An interesting story, because a more accurate translation is that they were male temple prostitutes. So now we have a mental picture of many small temples across Israel, and inside you could find a man prepared to have sex with another man. Now prostitutes have customers, so we may imagine a number of visitors each day to each of these temples and inside an (unknown) number of 'male temple prostitutes' all offering an exalted spiritual experience through their sexual skills. Not quite what the WTS teaches about ancient Israel.
Viewed from that perspective, the description of David at 1 Samuel 18:1 take on a special poignancy:
1Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself.
Now jump across to 2 samuel 1: 26:
How I weep for you, my brother Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women! (NLT)
or this version:
English Standard Version : I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women.
Faced with this information, how can anyone argue that the relationship between the younger David and the older Jonathon, did not have a sexual connection?
It may distress some whose minds refuse to accept the evidence to think of David ( a type of Jesus) kissing Jonathon, but however much conservative Christians may try to argue it away, the evidence stares us in the face, since in the ancient world the older usually penetrated the younger, we must imagine Jonathon penetrating David (likely not just once, but a number of times), and providing such a memorable experience that David never forgot how wonderful his love affair with Jonathon was.
Now lets skip through the centuries to the time of King James himself,
as I'm sure everyone knows, James set up a committee and personally presided at many of its meetings to produce a new translation o the Bible, a translation that had a marked affect on the English language, and is particularly liked by many modern Christians.
I find it also poignant that James (even though married with children) preferred to have sex with men. In a different world arrangement his Royal partner would have been a male.
Here's a quote from a web-site on the British Royal family:
He also sought solace with extravagant and unsavoury male favourites ( http://www.britroyals.com/kings.asp?id=james1 )
I'm not sure about the judgemental statements evident in the word unsavoury. The English nobility could likely be said to have been 'unsavoury.'
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No-one else here is likely to know of him, but another giant in the world of human music has died
by fulltimestudent inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbd6tficdk
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fulltimestudent
Chinese opera is an acquired taste, and I have not yet acquired that taste (smile) but I have to admire the artistry evident in this artform.
If you would like to know more, this 'obituary' by Thorsten Pattberg, a German scholar specialising in East Asian scholarship, will explain a lot.
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No-one else here is likely to know of him, but another giant in the world of human music has died
by fulltimestudent inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbd6tficdk
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ANZAC day.
by zeb inthe 25th april in australia and new zealand is called anzac day.
the word is from australia new zealand army corp.. on this day are commemorated the lives of those lost in war.
the 25th april is the day in 1915 that the forces under incompetent commanders landed on the coast of turkey at a place called gallipoli or galliboli in turkish, in an effort to force turkey out of the great war.. the landings were an unmitigated blunder.
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fulltimestudent
Only one more post, before bitterness at the betrayal of so many dead and hurt consumes.
This is a poem by Australian poet, Dame Mary Gilmore, socialist, atheist and a fighter for worker's rights and more, expressing her bitterness at the British government's betrayal of Australian soldiers at the fall of Singapore in February 1942.
Singapore by Dame Mary Gilmore
They grouped together about the chief
And each one looked at his mate,
Ashamed to think that Australian men
Should meet such bitter fate!
And black was the wrath in each hot heart
And savage oaths they swore
As they thought of how they had all been ditched
By "Impregnable" Singapore.The 'she in the third verse, was Britain.But what's different? Just think of the poor bastards that died in ancient Israel. They too were betrayed by their glory seeking masters like Joshua, Saul and David . -
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ANZAC day.
by zeb inthe 25th april in australia and new zealand is called anzac day.
the word is from australia new zealand army corp.. on this day are commemorated the lives of those lost in war.
the 25th april is the day in 1915 that the forces under incompetent commanders landed on the coast of turkey at a place called gallipoli or galliboli in turkish, in an effort to force turkey out of the great war.. the landings were an unmitigated blunder.
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fulltimestudent
There's one more song that will probably be played around the pubs in OZ today. Its more topical, but has the same bitter edge.
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ANZAC day.
by zeb inthe 25th april in australia and new zealand is called anzac day.
the word is from australia new zealand army corp.. on this day are commemorated the lives of those lost in war.
the 25th april is the day in 1915 that the forces under incompetent commanders landed on the coast of turkey at a place called gallipoli or galliboli in turkish, in an effort to force turkey out of the great war.. the landings were an unmitigated blunder.
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fulltimestudent
eqv - It's a great song, and the full version makes it clearer that the 'Anzac glory' about a wonderful war perverts the truth. And the stupidity and cupidity evident in the public and 'secret' deals that the British and French made during and after the war, deals that reflected their view of the world, are still killing people in West Asia right now.
Here's the full version:
Esse quam videri : '...Johnny Turk had prepped himself well. He rained us with bullets and shot us with shell. In five minutes flat we were all blown to hell. He almost blew us back to Australia....We stopped to burn our dead. We burned ours and the Turks burned theirs and we started all over again...'
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
Half banana : It is really important to know that any early secular references to "christians" cannot be attributed to a particular cult or temple let alone one of the the Jesus cults.
You may like to provide a reference (or more than one if you wish) to the above.
As far as this statement is concerned:
"Early christianity was lumped with what was later perjoratively called paganism by the Romans since their beliefs overlapped as did the types of worship including prayer with arms extended."
I agree that to view the past from our contemporary perspective may distort our conclusions, but it takes effort to separate the two.
Having said that, I would agree with you that in Roman thought the possibility exists that all worship could be called 'religio,' although there are other possibilities, as is evident in one, mid-second century imperial letter, which speaks of, "those who do not follow Roman religion." (religio).
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The first known graffiti making fun of Christians
by fulltimestudent inwhat was the graffiti artist intending when he/she scratched this cartoon like drawing on the wall of a building that served as a training school for imperial guards and personal attendants in the imperial palace area of rome.
it is known as the alexamenos graffito.. .
our interest may focus on the crucified figure, but as a tracing of the drawing makes a little clearer - there's another figure of interest, a young male whose gestures indicate that he's praying, and the crudely written text says: .
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fulltimestudent
Yes, horses and their relatives (asses and donkeys etc) have been important in human history and therefore (at times) worshipped.
Is it possible that above graffito was based on Alexamenos' worship of a 'horse/god?' It's difficult to say yes or no, without more information. For example, if we knew that Alexamenos was South Asian (Indian) in origin, then I could make a connection.
This is how it could be argued, the Romans were the western market tor the East-West Trade Network (the so-called Silk Road - see Revelation 18). It was difficult for the Romans to trade directly with China, Iran (under both the Parthians and Sasanians) blocked the way and exacted a high tariff. To bypass Iran, the Romans developed trade links with India. So we know it was possible (but not necessarily probable) for a South Asian to find himself in a Roman territory, and somehow become involved in some action that resulted in his enslavement. Being bought and sold a few times, its possible that he finished up as a slave in the Imperial household.
In south Asia, there was a horse-headed god.
Images from Wikipedia.
He was an avatar of Vishnu, named Hayagriva. Information about this god, has been traced back to circa 2000 BCE, among the Indo-Aryan people who were moving south from the central Asia steppes where horses were important.
But it can be appreciated that this interpretation is highly dependent on some coincidences required to explain how a horse worshipper finished up in the Imperial palace. And, it can be noted I offer no explanation as to why this possible explanation has the horse god portrayed as executed.
Compare that to the explanation offered by most scholars. We know that Christians were in Rome in the period most likely to have been the time in which the graffito was scrawled on the wall. No coincidences required. We know that (apparently) Alexamenos (who may have made the second inscription himself), clearly saw himself as a faithful worshipper. If he wrote the second inscription, 'Alexamenos fidelis' ( trans: Alexamenos is faithful) himself, it may have been his response to the first graffito. (Or, maybe another Christian wrote it to encourage him). The vocabulary fits what we know about early Christians.
So how could we explain the horse/ass head on the crucified 'god?'
Is there anything that connects a horse headed figure to early Christianity?
A Wikipedia entry on Alexamenos states:
"Tertullian, writing in the late 2nd or early 3rd century, reports that Christians, along with Jews, were accused of worshipping such a deity.
He also mentions an apostate Jew who carried around Carthage a caricature of a Christian with ass's ears and hooves, labeled Deus Christianorum Onocoetes ("the God of the Christians begotten of an ass")."Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito
It is (as acknowledged) quite difficult to assert one interpretation as being the only possible explanation.
But it is possible to think through as to which explanation seems more likely.
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Review of Dr. Chryssides' new book on Jehovah's Witnesses
by Old Goat inhttp://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-review.html.
the book costs 140.00, but i bought it.
i agree with dr. de vienne's review.
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fulltimestudent
Wild_Thing : Thanks, Old Goat! Wow! I never knew the Watchtower claimed he was born before the time keeping of A.D. began.
Maybe it would be a good idea to check out our present calendar, which was first introduced in the sixteenth century, but took three centuries to have universal acceptance.
As far as the date of Jesus birth is concerned, most scholarship seems to focus on between 4 BCE and 6 BCE, so the WT seems a little closer to your thinking.
